Hello Readers,
A fellow ex-Gracepoint person is making an effort to gather stories and help those who are still hurting. Please see info below:
"My friends and I were part of Gracepoint Berkeley (classes of 2015 and 2017). We are heartbroken by the damage that Gracepoint has done to people whether they are believers in Christ or not. We are going to be collecting stories and then going public with them, as well as directing people to support groups for processing what happened. If you would like to tell your story or talk to us about other things we are doing to force Gracepoint to take responsibility, please fill out the form here: https://forms.gle/zD3VC1646QnJfuNT7"
Hope everyone is staying safe.
Hi everyone,
ReplyDeleteIt was unclear what we meant by "go public". We are thinking of having a blog and channel where we discuss the different issues in churches across the world and the underlying theological presuppositions that drive the behaviors and then discussing different viewpoints and which things people are trying to emphasize and uphold. We will not just be talking about GP, but we might use GP stories and stories from other churches as case studies and linking them with the relevant Biblical texts.
Hi, just wondering if there is an update on "going public" with this
DeleteDaniel and I are still working on things! Shoot us an email at leavegracepoint [at] gmail if you want to talk/catch up!
DeleteBest wishes to your efforts in this. I believe in the past many ex-GP blogs/forums were eventually shut down or made private due to various mysterious circumstances, I do hope that your effort will be successful. Keep in mind that GP does have quite a few members that are lawyers which probably loosely resembles their "legal team", so hopefully they don't/can't come after you guys.
ReplyDeleteYeah I have heard. I am not certain on exactly how we are going to use this data yet. One aspect of it is just to make sure we are not missing anything and are able to present the leaders of Gracepoint with a good picture of the damage that they are doing (despite the good things). I am working on something to share with the leaders at Gracepoint. A large part of what I am focusing on is theology and rightly handling the word of truth. I believe that Gracepoint has rightly handled the Bible, but also mishandled it at the same time. We are getting counseling for those who want it, but also figuring out how to bring these things to light in a biblical way with the greatest hope for unity and long-term change.
ReplyDeleteHow do you plan to "share with the leaders at Gracepoint." Do you still go there? Are you just going to email them or call them? Do you think they will engage with you? I have lots of questions!
DeleteI applaud this effort, but I think that it may be a bit of a stretch to say that Gracepoint has "rightly handled the Bible."
Delete1. Lordship Salvation. A lot of Gracepoint leaders have repeatedly made statements such as, "Salvation means that every single aspect of your life is fully surrendered to the Lordship of Jesus." This is 100% Works Salvation. https://www.gracelife.org/resources/gracenotes/?id=11
2. Extra-biblical rules. The most prominent example is their stance on dating and marriage, although there are plenty of others. The Bible explicitly declares that elevating personal opinions to the level of doctrine is wrong. (Matthew 15:9, 2 Peter 1:20)
3. Rebuking sessions and leaders demanding to know everything about members' lives. This is a direct contradiction of how conflict resolution is described in Matthew 18: Between the people directly involved, and not a 3rd party that had nothing to do with the matter. Galatians 6:1 also says that if you did not firsthand witness someone sinning ("if a brother IS CAUGHT."), you are not qualified to call them out.
4. Arbitrary obsession with age and numbers as measurement of spiritual maturity. Gracepoint leaders have repeatedly tried to dictate who members do Bible Study or DT with. They often claim that a 2-3 year age difference between people means that the older person "probably won't get much out of this interaction." They also forbid undergrads (age 18-22) from dating, but postgrads (age 22-24) are allowed.
Yet during Course 101 discussions, Gracepoint leaders claim that Josephus (38 - 97 AD), Tacitus (56 - 120 AD), and Lucian (125 - 180 AD) are CONTEMPORARIES of Jesus. The word contemporary literally means "same time."
These people are considered "contemporaries" of Jesus even thought they are all several generations younger than Him, yet a 2-3 year age difference is Night and Day when it comes to dictating what college students (legal adults!) can or cannot do? Ridiculous! Just goes to show how arbitrary and illogical Gracepoint rules are!
hello! I'm not fully involved with GP so I can't speak to everything you've written there, but I just wanted to add that Lordship Salvation is NOT a faith by works salvation :)
Deletehttps://www.gotquestions.org/lordship-salvation.html
Hello friend, I'm the 1:43pm commenter here. I read the GotQuestions link you sent, and there are some statements that appear irreconcilable.
Delete(1). "For he cannot cling to his sin and the Savior at the same time," and "Christians can and do sin." If someone is a sinner, how can he say he is not clinging to sin?
(2). "Jesus says that many who say “Lord, Lord” will not enter the kingdom (verses 21–23); in contrast, easy-believism teaches that saying “Lord, Lord” is good enough." ---- The people in Matthew 7:21-23 weren't proponents of easy-believism. Rather, they were in the Lordship Salvation camp. This is clear because they were basing their assurance of salvation upon the fact that they were active in the ministry and lived a morally upright lifestyle.
Those people were trusting in what THEY had done, not what Christ had done. They said, "Lord, Lord, have we not done many wonderful works in your name?" They didn't say, "Lord, Lord, have we not trusted in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the all-sufficient sacrifice for our sins? Notice that Jesus never denies that the Matthew 7:21-23 crowd actually did the goods deeds they claimed.
(3) "Those with genuine faith—those who are submitted to the lordship of Christ—follow Jesus..."
"Scripture teaches that behavior is an important test of faith."
These statements presents us with a terrible problem. If you only have genuine salvation if you are submitted to the Lordship of Christ, this means you aren't saved if you are not submitted.
David wasn't submitted to the Lordship of Jesus when he lusted after Bathsheba. Lot wasn't submitted to the Lordship of Jesus when he went into Sodom and Gomorrah. Samson wasn't submitted to the Lordship of Jesus when he was with the prostitute. Noah wasn't submitted to the Lordship of Jesus when he got drunk and naked in the presence of his sons. Peter wasn't submitted to the Lordship of Jesus when he denied Him 3 times.
Yet the Bible tells us that every one of these men was saved.
You and I aren't submitted to the Lordship of Jesus every time we sin.
Lordship Salvation is an inevitable precursor to works salvation. If the statement "Those with genuine faith—those who are submitted to the lordship of Christ—follow Jesus" is taken at its word, it leads to the unbiblical conclusions that either (a) People lose their salvation every time they sin, or (b) Every time a Christian sins, he proves he was never truly saved in the first place.
Most Lordship Salvationists will disagree that a single act of sin is reason to doubt someone's salvation. This leads us into the highly arbitrary and subjective game of "where do you draw the line?" Nowhere in the Bible are we told how frequent or how severe the sins must be, before it constitutes a pattern of sin. At what point have we crossed the line between stumbling versus living in blatant sin? Five level-7 sins per day? Twenty level-6 sins per week? A single level-10 sin at any time?
Under the Lordship Salvation doctrine, nobody can ever have assurance of salvation, because nobody can ever be sure that he has achieved satisfactory moral improvement. Nobody can ever be sure that he surrendered or obeyed enough.
(4) "Every good tree bears good fruit.”
This raises the question of what exactly does "fruit" mean here?
Since these false prophets are described as being in "sheep's clothing," it is implied that their true nature is not immediately apparent. The above passage is likely not describing Christians who live in debauchery, because they (unlike the wolves in sheep's clothing) are obviously and visibly problematic. Luke 6:43-45 and Matthew 12:33-37 tell us that it is their WORDS and DOCTRINE that give them away. The bad fruit borne by False Prophets are their unbiblical teachings
My opinion is that Gracepoint has glorified the bible as if the bible itself was God. The bible is not God. It tells the story of the Jewish people, and then the life of Jesus and his followers, but it is not God. White men usually decide what is "biblical" and what is not "biblical." Historically, it was "biblical" to be an enslaver. Husbands abuse their wives thinking it is "biblical." Gay teens commit suicide because they think who they are is "unbiblical." I personally am moving away from the "biblical/not biblical" duality of thought. Not everything is black and white like that. Is it not more useful to ask, what is the way of love? (Rhetorical question. This blog doesn't exist to debate the bible.)
DeleteI noticed when you google "gracepoint berkeley" this blog no longer comes up in the results. Used to come up right next to the GP homepage and yelp page. Maybe the search algorithm has been tampered with?
ReplyDeleteGracepoint is very intentional about this.
DeleteGracepoint members actively try to bury sites that hold views critical of Gracepoint. Leads are sent regular emails (about once a week, more frequently before the school year starts) telling them to visit, click around the Gracepoint and Gracepoint associated websites (campus group websites, Flickr, dis-gracepoint, dish-gracepoint, etc...), and stay on each page for several seconds, in order to raise them in the search algorithm. One of the expressed side purposes of creating all of these associated websites is to bury websites critical of Gracepoint. Staff are told not to even visit Yelp or any of the blogs with critical views of Gracepoint in order to bury these websites.
I know this may seem devious and conniving. And it may be. But in Gracepoint's eyes, they're defending the church they love and making sure that people looking for church and newcomers don't get a distorted or one-sided viewpoint of the church before they have a chance to visit and see for themselves.
I just googled the same thing, this website came up as fourth. Probably because I visit it so much!
DeleteThank you for sharing their tactics. I think it's horrible that they try to bury our stories. Newcomers won't know the insider workings of Gracepoint until after social and emotional ties have been solidified. This is how they work. You won't be told that they'll try to control every aspect of life the first time you visit. Or even the first year. First, they try to be friends with you and feed you good food and meet your needs.
Everyone who is reading this blog should come on this site every day and hit the "Refresh" button 100 times. This will keep the total page view count high and prevent Gracepoint from brushing us aside and dismissing our very real experiences and very legitimate criticisms.
DeleteNope this page was one of the top for me. I'm trying to find a church right now so this is valuable info for me to take into account. Thanks!
DeleteHi John Kim, are you able to vouch for this group that is doing the info gathering? Would you trust them with sensitive information?
ReplyDeleteI don't know who they are personally so I cannot vouch but I've communicated to them via email and filled out the survey. I may talk to them in person soon.
Deletewell... not "in person" but virtually with video.
DeletePlease report back after meeting with them! I hope you have archived and backed up this site in multiple places. It has provided much help to many people.
DeleteSure. If this blog ever goes down, please know it was hacked! I plan to keep this up forever.
DeleteI just chatted with "J" and saw/heard no red flags. They seem like they really are trying to help folks who have left as well as help change GP.
DeleteHello, I need some advice. My just-graduated sibling is a part of gracepoint. They've asked her to move into a group home (during a pandemic, no less). Pandemic aside though, she's convinced she has to live there to grow her faith. I'm afraid this is the first step of her getting even more engrossed in this church & for them to tighten their hold on her views. Already, she has this irrational perspective that she should only live and primarily interact with Christians, and that not living with Gracepoint will weaken her faith. How do I persuade her not to move in?
ReplyDeleteI'd imagine you need to think of it less as a persuasion and more of a conversation that you have as young adults. Asking her what are her plans. Why does she want to move in? What if things don't work out? You can feel it out and walk her through it and as strongly as you think she shouldn't go she probably think she needs to and I think its important to treat her like an adult. Unlike in Gracepoint a lot of things are told for members to do. I think first and foremost you can give her the idea of choice and consequences in a conversation. Don't bind her conscience but be truthful and give let her know your concern for her as family.
DeleteBesides you can discuss the usual. 1) Safety? Pandemic? why now and if you were to move in 1 year later once things calm down is that not better?Gracepoint will be there and your relationship with God should be independent of living conditions if you wish to go. I mean she can always drive to them and visit. That is an option too if she feels that strongly. You can always suggest that or the idea of remote things. Its the "responsible" thing in a period of uncertainty. Ask her to talk to her peers and see what they are doing. Some are staying some aren't. The more you are exposed the better.
2) Job. We are in a pretty big downturn economically. Can you support yourself? Do you have enough savings? What is your plan?
3) Checked out different churches and different ministries? Christianity and Gracepoints version of it is quite varied. You can always ask her to talk to different people both former members of Gracepoint, other Christians and other Pastors too. I think the world is a big place and you do a great disservice to not at least bring that fact out.
Just some ideas. Best of luck and regardless of what she chooses to do. I think she can at least appreciate a family member looking out for her.
(OP here) Thank you so much for taking the time to give this advice. I've talked to a couple of people in the past few days & they all share the same sentiment that we should ask her more questions to understand her reasoning, rather than telling her why it's not a good idea.
DeleteI'm also wondering if anyone has perspective on why she fears that she'll fall away from God if she doesn't live with Gracepoint people. This is pure speculation, but I'm wondering if she's being made to feel guilty about her being less committed to the church, given that everything is remote right now. From my point of view, it's just so normal to feel less connected - not just to the church but to everyone - right now given our remote world. But I don't know of other churches that are equating a change in circumstances to a change in your faith, or a change in your relationship with God.
Hi OP. First of all, I'm sorry about your sibling and the tight grip that Gracepoint has on their life. When I used to go, I also thought that it was only right for me to live with other church members. I was told that brothers and sisters in Christ need to keep each other accountable, need to sharpen each other, and that it was biblical for us to live together. They make you feel guilty about everything so I imagine that they are making your sibling feel guilty if they are not living with other church members. My commitment to the church and to God would have definitely been questioned if I didn't live with other church members every year until I got married. Freshmen year (or the year you start coming to Gracepoint) is the only year that is an exception.
DeleteI agree with others that there are no magic words you can say to convince your sibling. Sadly, they probably have to experience a lot of pain before starting to question what the leaders say.
Hi OP,
ReplyDeleteI was with Gracepoint for many, many years before I left, and I completely agree with what John has to say. My experience was very similar.
At the same time, I just want to advise you to be careful when talking to your sibling. If they've been at Gracepoint since college, there's a good chance that most of their friends belong to Gracepoint, and a lot of their identity as a Christian is tied to Gracepoint. If you come across as attacking Gracepoint, they can easily view it as an attack on themselves and take it personally.
I think it's good that you're looking out for your sibling, but as other posters have said, the best approach is probably just be there for your sibling rather than try to convince them to do something. At the end of the day, your sibling is an adult, and they're going to make their own choices.
For me, it took many years before I started to see the inner workings of Gracepoint. When I finally started to see how harmful Gracepoint was, it was extremely hard and painful to leave. But what made it easier was conversations with trusted Christian friends and family outside of the church. I don't know your exact situation, but I suggest you just be in her life and pray for her, so that when that day comes (if it comes) that she is ready to leave, you can be there for her to help her.
Thanks so much for this. I appreciate hearing your and John's perspectives -- especially helpful to understand that her church and friends are tied to her Christian identity and to be gentle when questioning why she holds certain Gracepoint-taught views. Praying for her and hoping it all turns out okay. -OP
DeleteHi everyone. Does anyone know if this group is still contacting individuals who submit the form? I recently left GP and really need support/perspective.
ReplyDeleteI will let them know that you need some support. Here is a list of folks who have offered their help over the years on this blog: (If I listed you and you want to be removed, just submit a comment and I will remove you.)
ReplyDeletequentin0111 at gmail dot com (former UCI a2f attendee)
parkys229 at gmail dot come (no longer in Gracepoint but believes Gracepoint is a God-driven church)
r a d I a n t j u b I l e e at gmail dot come (with no spaces left many years ago currently in Seattle)
Jaydubya2020 at gmail dot com
Truth dot seeker2100 at gmail dot com
Zacherylovesthelord at gmail dot com (former UC Riverside)
sk1nnyzebra at yahoo dot com (used to attend)
gracepoint dot reject at gmail dot com
My friends and I were at Gracepoint for 4-5 years and are also willing to help people in the Berkeley area. My name is Daniel Yee and I go to Livingwater (lw.church). DanielYee517@gmail.com or just add me on Facebook!
ReplyDeleteI added your email to my latest post. Thanks.
ReplyDeleteThank you for doing this!
ReplyDeleteYes, we are still available via the form or you can feel free to reach out to leavegracepoint@gmal.com. We are working with Daniel and are in contact with a lot of other ex-GPers who are willing to help too.
DeleteSince the title of this post is "Gathering Stories," I'd like to share my observations.
ReplyDeleteI haven't seen anyone else mention this directly yet on John's blog, but I'm sure the sentiment has been felt by some: Gracepoint leaders are often subtly, but deeply, prejudiced against some people. The targets of this prejudice are people who don't precisely fit their preconceived, cookie-cutter notion of how a Gracepoint attendee should look, think, and act.
When I used to attend Gracepoint, there was one girl in my year who was clearly on the leader's mental blacklist. Here are a few of many examples of how I could tell that the leader had it out for her:
1. Whenever we gathered for Bible study, Course 101, or to discuss any other topic in a Q&A format, the leader would go out of her way to disagree with & contradict everything that that girl said. No matter how open-ended or subjective the question was. The leader would either accuse that girl of being off-topic or completely missing the point. The leader would sometimes also pummel her with a series of very aggressive follow-up questions, backing her into a corner until she was forced to admit that her initial response was wrong & the "conventional" Gracepoint textbook answers were right.
In retrospect, this is probably the reason why the leader was so prejudiced against that girl. Her perspectives didn't exactly match what Gracepoint what their members to think and feel.
2. Whenever that girl was speaking, the leader would have a slight scowl on her face, and crinkle her nose. It looked as if the leader had 100 pounds of manure under her nose.
3. Whenever there was a group discussion and that girl was sharing her thoughts, the leader would interrupt & cut her off mid-sentence very frequently. She got silenced more often (and more aggressively) than everyone else in the group COMBINED.
4. Not once, but twice, I overhead the leader criticizing her contributions to potluck dinners. On the first occasion, our peer group was in charge of providing desserts. The "Blacklist Girl" brought a large bag of caramel-flavored kettle corn. When the leader saw this, she half-rolled her eyes and said in a very condescending tone, "I fail to see how this is a dessert, but o-kay...."
The second time, our peer group was again in responsible for dessert. This time, the Blacklist Girl contributed an apple pie from Costco. Later that week, at a homegroup meeting, the leader made some passive-aggressive general remarks about store-bought items being inferior to homemade ones (probably 80% of the other girls brought a dessert they had made), because they don't show any thought or effort.
Sounds like that leader too immature to be "leader" of any sort.
Delete@John it's not just the issue of being too immature. We all know Gracepoint's bureaucratic system is based on who is the most obedient to the leader and who kisses the asses of the top the best, particularly the deacons and pastors. Anyone who dissents will be immediately pushed out based on "fit to the church".
DeleteThe measure of spiritual maturity at Gracepoint is not in their actual relationship with God. It's all based in works and who performs the best. That being said, a majority of these of these leaders at Gracepoint, don't even have the conception of what it means to lead others in their faith, let alone even have enough depth in their relationship with God. Look at their course system you have to go through in order to even be at a point of serving. You have to finish course 101 to make a salvation decision in some cases. You then need to finish Christian formations to make a lordship decision. Then you have to do course 301 and be approved by your leader to serve in college. It's just a checklist of items to check off until you are rewarded a title by the church or in some cases an opportunity to date. Ultimately it is man that is judging you and dictating your life, not God.
I meant immature in their character. I agree with you that climbing the "ranks" at Gracepoint depends mostly on how one proves their dedication to the church, which they liken to dedication to God. You are completely right that it's all a man-made system.
DeleteWow. I can’t believe that sister stayed, that sounds incredibly demeaning. Hopefully that staff has been removed from GP...
ReplyDeleteI highly doubt Gracepoint would remove a staff that is willing to protect their culture. I've personally have also been on the blacklist myself. My blacklist was cross ministry, cross class, and cross gender one based on a particular leader spreading a bunch of lies based on his speculation and hurt ego out of "concern for the sheep" insofar a deacon had to step in and run their own investigation. Sad thing is that leader has now been promoted as the church plant lead for UC Santa Cruz. It's quite disgusting GP rewards and reinforces this type of behavior for preserving their toxic culture.
DeleteThe girl whom that leader clearly disliked/distrusted started "gradually" leaving. She showed up less and less frequently over the next few months, and then left altogether around 1 year before I did
ReplyDeleteI am a former member of GP who was asked to fill out this form a while back. I was never that involved and never underwent training to become a leader, but I still attended many events and services and lived with my peers. I was very surprised to see that one of the questions asked if I had to recover from anything, since I was ignorant of what GP was like behind the scenes and didn't feel like there was anything particularly awful about GP. So I asked about that and was given an explanation of the legalistic, authoritarian, cultish nature of GP on the inside, which surprised me greatly. Though I thought about it some more and realized there were some potential red flags along the way, that I just dismissed before or didn't know enough to draw a proper conclusion. And I became a bit more upset about times I still attended GP events despite being concerned about my schoolwork, and how my peers' use of our apartment for GP activities made it more difficult for me to sleep or study when I needed to. And how I could have spent my time differently, possibly forming more long-term friendships, or preparing better for a career or graduate school. And after I thought about it, I didn't really have that much in common with my peers (most of my closer friends in GP either left earlier). In fact, I felt relief and liberation after I left the GP-related chat groups, shortly after learning the truth behind GP. And I've since been interested in learning more about the truth about GP since I spent a lot of time there. I have read most of the posts on this blog, and I would conclude that GP is unlikely to ever change unless the narcissistic, authoritarian leaders at the top, and the culture they have created, are removed.
ReplyDeleteI really want to report this cult to campus admins. They probably won’t do anything but they should know what is going on under their noses. Still carrying traumatic thoughts from my time in this church.
ReplyDeleteMy friend sent me a link here as a goof. Thought I'd share my experience real quick as a semi-outsider.
ReplyDeleteI attended Gracepoint Minneapolis for a few years during my undergrad. I was involved in Gracepoint and Acts2Fellowship, but I was one of the people that never truly met the GP mold, so I kind of strattled the difference between being one of the in-kids and one of the outsiders. I never officially became a member of Gracepoint because I refused to get baptized again, but I did attend for about 3 years or so.
Overall, my opinion is that Gracepoint was certainly an abusive and authoritarian church, but I would not call it a cult like others would. (I remember a grad student called an event "cult-like" at one point and the pastor raged at him.) Despite making several friends there, I do certainly regret attending for 3 years, and it has hampered my spiritual development.
There's a few experiences I specifically remember as being highly inappropriate as a church, and I'd break them into roughly three categories. Theologically concerning, abusive, and exclusionary practices.
In regards to the theologically concerning aspects - I don't want to get into too much theology. I am not SBC, I attend a ELCA church right now, so I'm sure I'll disagree with many people here. I also hold a very high christology, which differs from GP too. But there are some things that GP believed that were just flat out wrong, such as:
1. When I was there, the pastor was Timothy Rhee and his wife was Alice. I remember specifically during a prayer night, Alice directly rejected the immutability of God. She said by praying, we can change God's mind. No theology holds that belief - it is not a Christian belief. Christians have always believed in the immutability of God, and praying to change God's mind was LITERALLY what the pharisees did wrong.
2. Part of my issue with Gracepoint was that I refused to get re-baptized at Gracepoint. This is what prevented me from becoming a member of the church and partaking in communion, and Pastor Timothy told me I wasn't allowed to take their yearly communion as such. (Kind of funny, isn't it? A church where communion is an ordinance instead of a sacrament restricts it to people that fit their mold!) I don't want to get into the issue of adult vs paedobaptism, but I explicitly asked PT if he would be re-baptized if he joined a church other than Gracepoint. He said yes. Who knew GP was anabaptist?
3. I'm sure the pastors can correctly recite some concept of salvation, but they've allowed most of the staff to completely mess up salvation from a theological standpoint. It really isn't defensible.
The re-baptizing thing is VERY REAL. I was already a Christian but I was brainwashed/forced/pressured into accepting Christ again AND getting baptized again.
DeleteThe abusive category is by far the most concerning. As mentioned, it is an abusive church. The first handful of things that come to mind:
ReplyDelete1. When I was in the middle of leaving GP because I was not allowed to become a member of the church, my small group leader told me on several occasions that I was not a Christian and was not saved. That's right - what saves you is the decision of your leader and not Jesus Christ.
2. Gracepoint is - by design and intention - a sectarian church that only seeks there own. In Gracepoint, there is rich and poor, and there is jew and gentile. One way I experienced this was in the radically different socioeconomic class I came from compared to everyone else.
I come from an extremely poor background. My father is mentally retarded and my family never made more than probably about $15K a year or so growing up - my childhood is marked with periods of homelessness, trailer parks, and crack houses, and those same financial issues followed me to college. Despite this, I was always told I was "never good enough" because I was stingy and worldly. I remember once my leader harassed me about not going to their winter retreat. I couldn't afford the fee. What am I supposed to say? "Andrew, I'm literally wearing shoes with holes in them despite it being 15F outside because I can't afford a new pair. I don't have $50 to go on the retreat"? Or another time, one of my peers ripped my coat as we were playing a game outside and I got mad at him, and was told I wasn't being christ-like for being mad at him. Sure, maybe there was an argument there - but a community of Christians that recognize inequalities in the world should at least understand part of what provoked that reaction. It's Minnesota. It gets to -20F every year. Ripping the side of my coat open hurts me.
Gracepoint is the least socioeconomically aware church I've ever been a part of. I remember during freshman welcome week one year, a staff member made a freshman attending an event extremely uncomfortable by calling the place his parents live the "crack stacks" (which is a nickname for low income housing near the university of minnesota). WTF? That's an intentional attempt to embarrass someone who is in a new environment.
This is especially concerning since Jesus claimed a special association with the poor. (As theologian Herbert McCabe once said - there is no God except for the God of the poor.) But Gracepoint isn't concerned with that - they're concerned with attracting middle class asians that are studying computer science to grow their numbers and influence.
3. As I'm sure we all know, Gracepoint makes an intentional and concerted effort to isolate you from any non-GP people. Their preferred way of doing this is making all of your friends GP, and their secondary method is making you ignore your non-GP friends. I have too many experiences to even start here.
Thank you for making me realize something that I had never really put my finger on before. Gracepoint is ABSOLUTELY classist. There was never any financial assistance to any of the students to attend anything... it was just assumed that you could pay. I remember paying two thousand dollars to go on a mission trip. In a way, it was signaled as a sign of one's spirituality. We were encouraged to be financially irresponsible as a sign of dependence on God. We were expected to give to the church until the point it hurt. I think there were definitely assumptions that all the students had more than enough money.
Delete@APR thanks for sharing! I want to add on a comment that your experience makes their posturing about not wanting to cause another brother to stumble even worse now. This is a church that claims to be against buying anything "nice" because it might cause a brother to stumble and they have no empathy for someone in situation like yours. The hypocrisy is astounding. Also, I want to mention a certain church plant lead and deacon had the audacity to scream at people for using the church for "cheap housing" while they pack their houses to lower costs overall. They are so out of touch with their own statements.
DeleteI attended Gracepoint UCSD, and the above comments are absolutely right! There is underlying financial arrogance behind many of the seemingly charitable acts performed by Gracepoint leader.
DeleteOne day, my leader was lecturing me about the importance of being an active and contributing member of the Gracepoint community. They kept bringing up examples of things they were doing right:
- "Even though it's really expensive, I let people eat food out of my fridge. Open homes, open lives, open refrigerators."
- "I provide food for the Sunday services once a month. It's very expensive, but if I grumbled, I would be unloving and selfish."
This same leader lives in a $850k house in La Jolla. The sheer audacity of them to complain that it was "really expensive" to buy chips and salsa and cookies once a month!!!!
------------------
John's statements are also correct. Most Gracepoint events cost money to attend, yet attendance is far from voluntary. This absolutely reeks of obliviousness and callousness towards the financial situation of many college students.
Wow- I went to UCSD A2F too. Could we get in touch?
DeleteThis conversation reminds me of other things that felt classist. There was the emphasis on living "together" and "near" one another but the area of town that had been chosen to live in was very expensive. There was no consideration of members not being able to afford the area. Or they would fit as many people as legally (whatever the landlord would allow) possible into a property to make it more affordable. The same was true for undergrad but to a lesser extent. If you "chose" not to live in the area or with memebers, it was a reflection on your spiritual condition. If you did find something affordable in the area, it was a huge battle to try to get roommates or peers to agree to live there bc most of them come from at least middle class and the housing was below their living standards. In undergrad students that had to work to survive were "not prioritizing their spiritual life" and their salvation/lordship would be questioned. I cant think of anyone that had a job to survive that was considered "core" in undergrad. For context, I attended one of the church plants in the past few years. I did want to say when I was there that there was some financial aid available for retreats/outings/ missions trips.
DeleteThis reminded of me of another conversation with someone that shared regarding tithing. During undergrad, my friend had to work multiple jobs while taking classes to be able pay for his rent, classes, and support himself. He didn't come from a middle class background. And whenever he did have money left over to give to GP, he would give it. But then as a postgrad, there was issue with tithing with those in the same life group as him. The leader of that life group gathered all the guys together during one of C301 chapters and specifically addressed tithing and this issue. The leader scheduled a one-on-one with each of the guys including my friend. When my friend had his one-on-one, he did share that he couldn't tithe fully because of he needed to support himself during undergrad otherwise he wouldn't attend the college where he was at. Then the leader told him to repay that he had to owe to God for not being able to tithe fully back during undergrad. Even though he was working full time when he received this talk, he still couldn't repay what is "owe".
DeleteAnd finally, what bothered me the most about my Gracepoint experience is how exclusionary it was. Gracepoint's message is that you're only right with God if you follow the right steps. Those steps are discover Gracepoint in college, do Course 101, make a salvation decision, get baptized, do course 201, make a discipleship decision, join the GP staff, yadda yadda. That's Gracepoint's recipe for salvation. It has nothing to do with Christ and His faithfulness. The issue is that completely rejects the vast majority of people on this planet. For example, I remember one time during my second year at Gracepoint, during freshman welcome week, we were playing frisbee outside the student center. A student asked if we were a church and I gave him some information. Apparently that was wrong of me and he wasn't allowed to come to church - he was a non-traditional student and, as a staff member told me, "he's too old to join us."
ReplyDeleteAs hard as this is to believe, did you know that Jesus Christ himself doesn't meet Gracepoint's requirements for membership?
I'd bring up 100 more examples, but I'm running out of post space.
People are fallible and most of these stories are about individuals. I'm not denying that, but the point I'm making is that this is directly encouraged by Gracepoint the institution. Something something bear fruits. It's hard for GP people to admit this, and when I say this I'm referring to the Gracepoint the institution and not necessarily the people part of it, but by design, Gracepoint is a racist and classist organization. It's the exact opposite of the work of God.
My favorite book in the world is Hannah's Child by Stanley Hauerwas. One of the major topics in Hannah's Child is Hauerwas's transition from the working class (a bricklayer in Texas) to the upper class (a professor at Notre Dame and then Duke University.) In Hannah's Child, Hauerwas writes:
"I have spent my life in buildings built by people like my father, buildings in which the builders have felt they do not belong. Class matters. I am a long way from Pleasant Grove and the job, but I have no desire to leave Pleasant Grove or the job behind. […] My father was a better bricklayer than I am a theologian. I am still in too much of a hurry. But if the work I have done in theology is of any use, it is because of what I learned on the job, that is, you can only lay one brick at a time."
Hauerwas displays a deep understanding of the individuals that compromise the people of God. Hauerwas clearly understands that, in Christ, there is no jew or gentile. Despite himself being accused of being sectarian at times, he clearly understands that the work of God is given freely to all. Gracepoint clearly does not believe the same.
I left Gracepoint senior year of college and I'm glad to say I was able to enjoy my 20's. I just turned 31 and there are no regrets. I experience life to the fullest while I am still involved in non-GP church. After leaving Gracepoint, I got to:
ReplyDelete1) get a job in downtown Los Angeles and experience the city life
2) date many girls and experience relationship to the fullest without restrictions.
3) go on vacations
4) use weekends to rest and enjoy after long hard week of work
5) experience life and make mistakes - slept around with some girls here and there - yet do not make the same mistake. This is all part of learning and growing up, which you cannot experience in GP
6) recently relocated to Seattle from Los Angeles and landed myself a 6 figure job
7) going to purchase a home next year
8) found an actual church which lets me have relationship with God to the fullest without legalism
For college students reading this, if you want to experience #1-#7, please leave ASAP!
9) spend time with my family without leader's forcing me to cut that time short at a whim
Delete10) Serve and explore in ministries without getting judged for not evangelizing. Some times it's about loving other as Christ would and relationship building with no agenda.
11) being at a church with an extremely strong and diverse pastoral team that is transparent in addressing hard issues ranging from politics to mental health instead of spending that time and energy scheming their next bait and switch strategy. I can't emphasize enough the need to be in a church that helps you grow in understanding God's wisdom not man-made legalism.
12) able to spend time exploring and developing my career.
13) having a lot of time and flexibility to continue maintaining past relationships and building more.
14) And most likely later on, being able to have a normal wedding where I can talk about my relationship with my bride and kiss her instead of bowing instead of some copy and paste meme Christian wedding.
What restrictions are there on dating after graduation?
DeleteWhy can't one buy a home as a gp member?
Do adult members have leaders who can tell them to cut off family time on a whim; or does that apply only to undergrads?
Is there an actual prohibition of kissing your bride at your own wedding??
Most folks join Gracepoint as a student and grow into adulthood in the church. Dating after graduation is the only time dating is allowed. I have never seen students be allowed to date during my time there.
DeleteYou *can* buy a home but when I attended, this was another one of those things that you could only do if your leader approved. Most of the time a couple bought a home, they emphasized how it was going to be used for ministry, etc.
It's rare to see adult members join the church. By the time one is an adult, the relationships with family have already been hugely impacted by the church.
I am not sure if kissing at weddings is prohibited but I have attended many many weddings and I have never seen them kiss.
Kissing at weddings is NOT prohibited, but discouraged.
DeleteSource: Been to a lot of GP weddings, sometimes they kiss
Part 1
DeleteI'm going to answer as best as I can but frankly, there's a lot to each of these questions and it's really hard to give you a picture of what things are like if you haven't experience it yourself. I also want to emphasize that all of these things started with good intentions and good Biblical principles. But I think over time, these practices have become rigid rules which in turn builds up a culture of legalism and judgement (i.e. if you don't follow these rules, you must be unspiritual or have some character deficiency). I think this is often times why people who have left Gracepoint and people who are still in Gracepoint just can't seem to have a sensible discussion on these topics. People who are still in Gracepoint only focus on the good principles behind the practice. People who left only see the broken and often hurtful aspects that come from these practices.
Dating after graduation - yes, people date after graduation. Everything goes through your leader and all of it is confidential (you don't tell anyone you're dating until you are engaged). If you want to date someone, you tell your leader, and they find out for you whether that person is currently dating someone else. There are many reasons why they may tell you not to date someone at the moment (ex: either one of you aren't "spiritually ready"), but generally, if both parties are Christian and members of Gracepoint, the leaders are actually pretty hands off about this.
Buying a home - Speaking about the single staff (the majority of GP members), you're expected to live with other members of the church. Like John said, when people buy homes, they emphasize that it's for ministry. The scenarios where I have seen people buy homes - their expected to convert it into a ministry home (i.e. have other people move in, hold bible studies and other church events there). I think as a staff, if you were to buy a house, people would definitely questions why you have that sort of money, why you aren't giving that sort of money. And as with everything else, it all has to go through your leaders.
For married couples with kids, it's a little bit more common especially if they have a larger family with older kids. But again, there's always the emphasis that the house is for ministry.
Part 2
DeleteCut off family time - yes this applies to adults. The expectation is church activity comes first, no matter what. You have a family vacation scheduled, but then Pastor Ed and Kelly decide that we're going to have a church wide conference on those dates? Better reschedule the family trip if you don't want your leaders to think you're unspiritual.
Kissing at weddings - generally not done. You don't see couples show any sort of affection in public with one another. They rarely even sit next to each other during service, you can get corrected if you're seen talking to your spouse a lot. Hugging, kissing, holding hands in public is totally out of the questions. The rationale is, if you're seen showing affection in public, can stumble others who are single (people might become jealous, people might start to idolize marriage and romance, might bring flirty hook-up culture into the church, etc...). I'm not saying whether this is right or wrong. I think the ideas behind it are good, but in practicality, there's a lot of rigidity and legalism that can arise (for example, the church often looks like the guys and girls are segregated from one another). As a result of all of this, you can imagine that kissing in front of everyone would be extremely awkward. So generally this is not done. Some Caucasian couples do choose to kiss though, since it's more of a norm in Western culture than Asian culture.
It's hard to be thorough, but I can definitely go into more specifics if you have questions about anything. I tried to give you at least some objective picture of what things are like. But of course, I have my own opinions and my own experience in each of these issues, so everything I say is colored by my own personal opinion about the good and the flaws of each of these topics.
I have heard from a friend who used to attend GP that there are also cases where undergrads attempt to secretly date without letting leaders know and that when leaders find out, it can lead to harsh rebuking and excommunication.
DeleteUC Berkeley Confessions had a post describing weddings in Gracepoint, as explained by an observer: https://www.facebook.com/berkeleyconfessions/posts/2259244967685262
DeleteThis seems consistent with other people I've talked to. I only attended one GP wedding, and it was during my first year of college so I don't remember it particularly well. Supposedly they do allow kissing at some weddings now (apparently they used to never allow it) from what I have heard.
From what I have seen in past weddings, the couple bows before each other, not kiss.
DeleteSo if you're a guy, and a girl you like calls you on the phone without going through the leader(s) and says "hey, i've wanted to ask for a while, so here goes: would you like to go get dinner together and walk around Union Square tomorrow night?"
DeleteWhat do you do?
About dating in secret, back when I still somewhat attended gp, one weekend I was visiting Legion of Honors in SF by myself, in the courtyard I ran into one female church member I knew holding hands with some guy, probably another church member. I couldn't forgot the shocked and scared expression on her face. Because they were still dating in secret and not letting anyone else know.
Delete@amd When that happened to me, I told my leader and I think that person got a rebuking.
DeleteIt seems that behind the scenes, there are reoccurring cases of secret undergrads dating behind their leaders' backs.
DeleteI personally don't think that dating as an undergrad is bad if it is a godly relationship.
But, I do think that undergrads feeling the need to hide their relationships along with feelings of guilt and shame really just goes to show how unhealthy the GP culture is and how it has such a strong negative influence on students' mindsets.
Pastor Ed nowadays says the he encourages the guy to pick up the phone and call the sister directly. To an extent that is true. From what I also heard was they do have single mingling type of events in Praxis. The goal is that if a guy is interested he will ask the sister directly for their number. So much for criticizing other churches for being a meat market. There isn't any male/female interaction other than church initiated ones or ministry meaning it's still an extremely regulated environment and desperation runs high when your roommates start announcing their engagement out of the blue and move out. Pre marital is done by third party (confirmed by my peers who are recently engaged). There is also a couple houses that houses a bunch of single 30+ sisters meaning I'm sure there's still some leader manipulation going on. There is also classes teaching couples how to have better conversations with their spouse. People who are dating usually have 9 dates before they are engaged because they are too busy with church responsibilities to even date. I swear couples are more worried about seeing seen dating than actually spending time with each other. And they do have a dating reader that they need to read before they can be approved for dating. And based on what one of my peers told me, and it sounded like he was regurgitating Pastor Ed's bullshit, GP people date to see how they are a partner in ministry and everything else they have a lifetime to figure out. I'm sure those who are married/engaged here know that's only a small portion to the bigger puzzle that you are dating your SO to understand. Either way the dating in GP is still quite toxic but a bit of a far cry from their arranged selection days.
DeleteI've been to 8 GP weddings up until this point. Only 2 have kissed. My peers and I have a betting pool on seeing who will kiss. A lot of people don't kiss because they don't feel comfortable since they haven't even had any form of PDA to begin with, but I heard the most recent excuse was because of COVID. Quite laughable considering they still are meeting for retreat in LA and other places albeit with masks. I wonder how many more fibs they need to keep telling to keep up with their stupidity and when people will start catching on.
DeleteWait they used COVID as an excuse? And yet they weren't concerned about the idea of hosting such an event? How many people are attending GP weddings these days?
DeleteFrom what I heard from my friend, they did use COVID as an excuse. You can check Flickr. I think it was like 20-30 people? And COVID is the least of GP's concerns. People who have recently left that church have confirmed that they were forced to meet during the beginning of the pandemic in HB. Sources have also told me that they were planning to do staff winter retreat in Texas because restrictions were a lot looser compared to California. And if you actually go to some of the ministry pages like Facebook for A2F UCLA and Minnesota, they have already begin broadcasting to the world that they did retreat in person albeit wearing masks indoors. COVID to them is just a tiny inconvenience to their egos that they need to keep massaging. A church like this who can't value the community particularly in the midst of a pandemic should really evaluate their priorities.
DeleteCould it be that rebukes for asking someone out directly are a thing of the past, and today's gp leaders serve that function for members who are too shy? And anyone who is not afraid can do so on their own without fear of a rebuke? I'm just trying to reconcile what past vs current members say.
DeleteIt could be but it probably isn't. I don't trust anything that current members say because I myself have heard Pastor Ed say from the pulpit that sisters and brothers can mingle but it never actualized.
DeleteI was at Gracepoint and my leader would ask me from time to time, “Who do I like?” One time I asked someone out with the leader’s permission and was told to be explicit about asking them on a date.
ReplyDeleteI'm genuinely curious for those who have gone through the process: how do you become an official member of GP during post-grad? What is the process like? What are the requirements?
ReplyDeleteIf I remember correctly, you have to have a written testimony and have been baptized. You go through a membership class (I think it was a few hours for 1-2 days each) where you read about their core values and verse backing those up, definition of a parachurch, how GP's values and practices came about, the role of leaders, and there was more, but I forget. Some of these are written by GP and some are excerpts from books. I also think there was a video that Pastor Ed recorded where he talks about some of these things. Then you're given a membership covenant to sign if you want to join the church. They also go through the membership requirements on that membership covenant, which is essentially to be dedicated to growing in your relationship with God and help build up the church (I forget the rest).
ReplyDeleteI think your leader also has to approve (but I'm not 100% positive). But I've never heard a case where someone was denied being a member, other than they haven't been baptized or written a testimony yet.
I knew a few people whose membership did not get approved, because their leader did not approve of their testimony, even after multiple rounds of revision and discussion.
DeleteI don't understand the concept of having someone edit their testimony. A testimony is a written account of someone's personal and spiritual past. You cannot change history! Also, how can leaders claim to know someone's life better than the person themselves?
At least in my experience and from what I've heard from my peers, the editing and revising is more along the lines of helping their story become clear and concise. It's not like they're saying "oh, this didn't happen" or "you need to add this part". They just want to the testimony to be clear in terms of how they recognized their sinfulness, how they came to realize God is real and understand Jesus died personally for their sins, how they recognize that Jesus needs to be Lord over their lives, and maybe how their lives have changed afterwards. If the student doesn't seem to be clear in these, even after a few rounds of discussion, then I can see how that would be a source of concern.
DeleteOf course I don't know the stories of those you knew who didn't get approved. I can just personally speak for myself that the first couple of drafts of my testimony were pretty rough (looking back on them, I cringe) and my leader at the time was actually quite helpful in making me think through certain parts more.
"because their leader did not approve of their testimony, even after multiple rounds of revision and discussion"
DeleteYou should see my testimony, LOL. GP did not like it one bit.
They also send testimonies to tons of staff btw. After I had sent the first draft to my leader, 2 days later the pastor's wife talked to me about it. Ok, whatever. Then like 1 day later a staff I barely knew mentioned it in passing.
Haven't you noticed it's just an attempt to blow smoke up their asses and present an image that it was Gracepoint's ministry that helped you make a salvation or lordship decision. Listen to every single one of their testimonies in baptism, it's almost more or less the same pattern of what's presented. It almost always includes a Course101 being so instrumental in them understanding their sinfulness. I also heard Kelly Kang one time almost blocked almost all the baptism candidates from getting baptized because she didn't like their testimony and many of them had to rewrite it. If anything this should confirm that these leaders are leveraging testimonies to repeatedly blow smoke up their asses and tell the world they are doing a good job of evangelizing. I wonder if they ever read people's deconversion testimonies after they leave their church.
Delete@Leave Gracepoint
DeleteI mean, if they're getting baptized at Gracepoint, odds are GP was instrumental in their decision. Honestly, C101 is very good material to get an understanding of Christianity, and for a lot of people, it was the first time they ever seriously thought about Christianity or their faith so of course it's going to mentioned in their baptism testimony.
Of course, I don't know about the Kelly Kang incident you mentioned, but based on what you said, I wouldn't say that this is evidence that they're trying to make themselves look so good about evangelizing. She could have asked their testimonies to be changed for a wide variety of reasons. The point is, we don't know her reasons for each of those testimonies and I think it's quite a stretch to say that she changed it because it didn't glorify GP enough.
My experience as a person who was already a Christian and baptized before I started going to Gracepoint is that:
Delete1. My salvation was questioned multiple times to the point that I doubted my own salvation and "accepted Christ" again at Gracepoint.
2. So then of course my prior baptism was invalid and I had to get baptized again at Gracepoint to be truly saved.
I have to point out that the number of conversions/baptisms/souls saved is a major dick swinging focal point in Christian circles. Does this directly lead to persons being forced to accept Christ at Gracepoint (again) and the following baptism? Probably. Is it 100% responsible for it? Probably not.
The whole culture of "our church is the most godly and poor everyone else who go to other churches" is what is toxic and unbiblical about Gracepoint.
What's in that covenant? Is there a covenant or something similar that students sign while in undergrad?
ReplyDeleteThe covenant is for members so not undergrads. From what I remember (it has been over 5 years since I did it), they stress in the class that signing a covenant is something normal that most churches do. I remember it mentioned a commitment to tithing and that you agree with the church's values. I feel like there was something about accepting the leadership structure but I dont 100% remember.
ReplyDeleteIs that, in fact, what most churches normally do?
DeleteMost churches have instruction/classes/etc. However, most don't have a contract (which is what they call a covenant.) Gracepoint intentionally conflates "christian" with "American evangelical." This has far-reaching implications, and this is just one example.
DeleteTo become Catholic (or most orthodox churches), there's a ~6 month process that teaches you about the religion that ends with the Sacraments of Initiation (Baptism, Eucharist, Confirmation). That is how you become a member. No written contract.
To become most mainline protestant denominations, there's a set of classes. Sacramental protestants (eg: lutherans, episcopalians, etc) have a confirmation ceremony. Others do not. No written contract.
And so on
This is just another example of Gracepoint being legalistic. Really they intend for the contract to replace confirmation because they don't want to even smell the word sacrament.
What's the penalty if you break the rules in the "contract"? Get kicked out of the church? After all, it's just a piece of paper without any legal bindings.
DeleteI sat in one of the membership intro class, after maybe some sermon, we're supposed to sign the contract. I didn't sign it eventually because of the 10% *pre-tax* tithing rule. Being a new grad at the time and making decent salaries as a software engineer, and still having some debt to pay, I couldn't allow myself to give them so much money. I'm so glad I didn't sign it, but remembered that there were some pressure and guilt at the time when everybody else at the class signed the contract and turned it in but I was the only one holding it.
That is how it is designed to work.
DeleteHow specifically were pressure and guilt applied to get the young adults to sign?
DeleteI'm the Anonymous posted at March 19, 2021 at 12:41 PM
DeleteFrom my perspective, when I saw everyone else being devoted and sacrificial of every aspect of their life to sign the contract, and I'm gripped by this money problem, it made me feel I'm the one so sinful and selfish and got some serious problems to think over and improve and repent about. Also if the everyone is signing the contract so willingly, it must not be that bad. It promotes a groupthink.
Going to comment this just for the record, all GP groups on Instagram that I've scanned including their main one have said nothing about the AAPI attacks or the recent shootings for that matter and have been promoting their typical events. Note that I heard they were pressured by people in their congregation to do something to pretend they cared about BLM. If anything this should tell you what their priorities are as AAPI themselves are and how that extends further into their understanding of our roles as Christians in this broken world and initiating racial reconciliation. For all those on the fence at GP, what are YOUR priorities? To keep worshipping these false leaders and following their agenda or to get real and leave that cult.
ReplyDeletehttps://religiondispatches.org/dont-discount-evangelicalism-as-a-factor-in-racist-murder-of-asian-spa-workers-in-georgia/?fbclid=IwAR2OITD34YHkiu47YDNxTP99F-miIXDyxCDO8b46SA-UdVFJp24EsPyeOYM
ReplyDeleteThis feels appropriate for this forum as it was how I was raised here.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2021/03/17/atlanta-shooting-southern-baptist-pastors-wrestle/
DeleteYou are aware that the murderer has ties to the Southern Baptist Convention right? You know who else is part of that organization? Gracepoint. There's no direct correlation to it but there is something wrong with the fruit of Southern Baptists that we've personally experienced with GP and now witnessed with this tragedy.
Also, GP has been a lot more discrete suddenly and has only one single reference to their relationship with the South Baptist convention. I wonder why...
Because more and more folks are realizing that SBC is a white supremacist organization with a toxic culture.
DeleteFrom the religiondispatches article: "“As an adult in the SBC, I saw this fetish and devaluation from white men who thought I should have sex with them because as an Asian, I was a geisha (which they take to mean ‘sex worker’), and so it’s not really cheating or adultery for them.”"
Deletethat's ridiculous and infuriating
From the washingtonpost article: "According to a video that was captured by The Post before it was deleted, on Sunday the church’s pastor, the Rev. Jerry Dockery, gave a sermon on the apocalypse. Christ was coming soon, Dockery said, and the world must be ready."
so much bulls**t
Hey.. I'm not a member of Gracepoint or any SBC, but using this incident to draw conclusions about the convention as a whole such as labeling them a white supremacist organization is seriously unfair to them.
DeleteDear @Anonymous AT 8:24 PM. Please take time to educate yourself about the origins of the SBC. I stand by my statement above.
DeleteDifferent Poster here. I about that. There is no doubt that there are racist members within the SBC as well as racist SBC affiliated churches. It seems to me however that SBC is a fairly loose confederation of churches under the Baptist denomination with the main thing holding them together are a few key doctrines and a liking for full bathing baptisms. Heck there are many member ethnic baptist churches as well.
DeleteSo I would find it hard to characterize the entire organization as white supremacist.
https://csbc.com/news/csbc-signs-purchase-agreement-to-sale-jenness-park/
ReplyDeleteGracepoint can pretend they aren't part of SBC but this says otherwise.
Thanks.
ReplyDelete