A reader has created a subreddit to discuss Gracepoint. You can find it here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/
Thank you all for supporting this blog and getting the truth about Gracepoint out there.
For those of you who are struggling to leave or feel trapped, you are not alone. Please reach out for help.
Also look at a former member's instagram account @doubtersdiary. The account owner wants to keep the church unnamed, but she is talking about stuff a lot of ex-GPs might relate to.
ReplyDeleteVery relatable!
DeleteI'm on the subreddit so whoever wants to communicate with me via chat over there are welcome. I don't give out my contact info so all the folks that have asked for that over the years, the subreddit is a good way to communicate with me privately.
ReplyDeleteHi John, our family is very grateful with these exchange of ideas. I am learning how to use Reddit because unfamiliar with it; but I would really like to contribute as a family member of an active GP member who is not coming to terms with the estranged relationship caused by the unhealthy practices of the church; the amount of time it has drained her. We are heartbroken and as a family determined to get her out. I hope to be able to figure out how to message you privately so as not to jeopardize on the plans.
DeleteHi! Yes, I am on reddit and you can message me there.
DeleteIS your Reddit name johnkim2020?
DeleteI’m truly sorry to have heard many of these stories. I’ve been a part of GP for about 6 years now and honestly believe that I have had the fortune of experiencing a GP that has recognized its shortcomings, failures, and sins and have been trying to improve in many areas that they have been cited for on the blogs. For example, one thing that is constantly being brought up here is the constant pressure that people feel that they are being pushed into ministry. Having been a staff for about more than a year, we’ve all been encouraged to take it easy with the students and make sure they’re doing well in school and have their life together and to make sure that we’re not forcing them to do anything.
ReplyDeleteSecondly, I have to confess that sometimes it’s not Gracepoint but it’s our own sense of self righteousness that gets us to commit these faults. My family are Christians and I used to look down on them with a sense of self-righteousness because I was serving a lot at the time and was very involved in church. Later on, sometimes I’d see in my life , my sheer sinfulness and realized that it didn’t matter how much I served but that, I was a sinner just as much as they were and thank God that we are justified by the death of Jesus on the cross.
Moving forward, I highly encourage people who have felt hurt or victimized by GP to reach out to past leaders or mentors in the church and try to reconcile. A lot of staff or most of the staff have seen the ways in which they have made errors and I think it would be very healing and helpful for both parties to speak and try to forgive.
Leave the gift at the altar and reconcile with your brother. I truly wish the best for all of you and praying for all your spiritual journeys.
This is the exactly the reason why Gracepoint members and the current Gracepoint church doesn't get it. We don't want the excuses of oh look how we've changed, we are easier on students. We don't look down on others for not being more apart of ministry... Frankly keep that self-righteous bullshit to yourself. Yes it might not have been you who've perpetuated these things its the previous generation and the previous generation's leadership but you are trying to defend and underplay the sins and the wrongs of the past. The issue is that leadership in our eyes has not acknowledged these things and in my humble opinion continues to perpetuate it. If it weren't for a pandemic where everyone were at home it would be no doubt that practices to a new generation of students were to continue.
DeleteWhere are the leader's realizing the error of their ways and contacting their former students and saying I am sorry I was wrong. Why aren't the members of gracepoint reconciling to their parents and their families? I just want to say this before you jump in and say let's just forget the past and move on under the guise of this spiritual lingo and talk of prayers remember this. There is no forgiveness of sins without admission of guilt and repentance. Only then comes reconciliation. You've seemed to forget that very model which you preach.
The problem is that GP uses excuses, such as how the organization is, on the surface, less toxic now than it was before, to deflect against criticisms, including some that still apply today. GP's culture is also probably responsible for leaders' self-righteousness as well. And GP staff are the ones who should be reaching out to reconcile and admitting their sins.
DeleteYou do seem well-intentioned with your comment, so I do appreciate your comment. But I think you're really trivializing the amount of hurt and trauma people who left Gracepoint experience. People have suffered years of abuse, hurt, and trauma. They've experienced all of their relationships and their whole purpose in life torn out from under them when they left Gracepoint. It isn't something you can just patch over with a conversation with your former leader.
DeleteYou say you've been at Gracepoint for 6 years so I'm sure then that you can imagine how hurt you would feel to leave Gracepoint. There are people, including myself, who have been at Gracepoint for much longer who have left. Think about what it must have taken for someone like that to leave. Imagine what they must have gone through. I think if you have that as a context, you'll see why your "go and reconcile" advice comes off as shallow and pedantic.
Bro.. I know you’re young and inexperienced but this is seriously one of the cringest thing I’ve ever read. As an ex-staff at Gracepoint, I’ve sat through my fair share of cringe messages cough (Jonny Yang), cough (Richard Tjhen), cough (Ed Kang), but man I really wonder who they’re letting become staff these days. I shudder at the fact if there are actually college students taking life/spiritual advice from you.
DeleteThere are so many people on this blog who have been genuinely hurt and spiritually abused, yet the fact you think it just stems from just being “pressured” is quite insensitive. Plus your response on that you’ll be praying for these people isn’t going to fix anything and just falls on deaf ears to be honest. Based on your lack of willingness to really engage in the root issues of the church - I’m not even sure why you bothered to post - was this another pool of people the you found you could “evangelize” too?
Anyway, if you’re not actually going to try to look up much less try to solve the root issues of this cult, please just refrain from posting in this blog (shouldn’t you be planning for church events/reflecting anyway?) trust me, nobody here will miss you. Or just another recommendation instead of crying to your leader about “internet bullies” just evaluate leaving and realizing how fake these pharisees are.
First of all, my experience with Gracepoint was only a few years ago. I’ve also talked to members and staff since then and can say that from what I see, no real change has been made. This is especially clear considering I experienced a lot of the same things a couple years ago that others have written about experiencing many years before. Gracepoint cares about managing their reputation, not about actually making meaningful changes.
DeleteSecond of all, your comment is extremely tone-deaf, insensitive, and ignorant. The burden of reconciliation should never be placed on the victim, and it’s honestly concerning you don’t realize that. Why would I reach out to the leaders, staff, or other members who spiritually abused me, alienated me for having questions/disagreements, gossiped about me and shared my personal information, or sexually abused me??? In hopes that they’ve “seen the ways in which they have made errors” ?? If they have (which I highly doubt), they should be the ones reaching out to apologize. This once again proves that Gracepoint has no regard for people once they leave and no interest in making real changes to their abusive ways.
I also question the sincerity of change because as recently as a few years ago Pastor Ed referred to online criticism as "keyboard warriors" who "dont have the courage to voice their issues in person". This was at memebers/post grads/staff messages. Many staff also spoke of those who criticize the church as the persecution of the good and faithful leaders of GP. To me that attitude does not indicate anything along the lines of having heard criticism, taking it to heart, and making amends or changes.
ReplyDelete"referred to online criticism as "keyboard warriors" who "dont have the courage to voice their issues in person".
ReplyDeleteLOL. So GP can harass them into recanting what they've said? Reminds me of when Donald Trump was attacking his whistleblower.
John--thank you for your blog. It has been helpful reading your posts and others' comments in processing my own experience. I've been following this blog for years and this is my first time commenting.
ReplyDeleteI joined GP in college, stayed after graduation, and left in 2017. It took me about a year to decide to leave. My dad asked me if "They [the church] did something".
Physically? No.
Emotionally? Mentally? Spiritually? Yes.
Gracepoint was my first church. It was where I accepted Christ and was baptized. It was also my last church. I left GP feeling very confused about my personal relationship with God and relationships within the church.
Christians should be joyful with the good news, right? But I was miserable. My relationship with God and involvement in church felt works based (attend meetings and events, show up for baby sitting and church cleaning, etc.). Relationships within the church also felt strained and the ideas of "accountability" and "speaking truth in love" felt like excuses for policing behavior and ensuring conformity. I remember instances in undergrad and postgrad being corrected over my clothing, for not talking enough, and even for not smiling enough or looking bored.
This policing and the lack of confidentially from peers and leaders (anything you share can get shared with multiple people including your leader's leader and/or ministry lead) made it difficult to have honest conversations before leaving.
Thanks Anon @2:46 PM. I was miserable too.
Delete"Relationships within the church also felt strained and the ideas of "accountability" and "speaking truth in love" felt like excuses for policing behavior and ensuring conformity."
DeleteYou really captured why I left. I loved Gracepoint and I loved serving and doing ministry at Gracepoint. But I also started to feel miserable because all my relationships felt fake and strained because of this part of Gracepoint's culture.
It gives me a lot of peace to know it wasn't just me because I was always criticized or shot down whenever I brought up any of these issues when I was at Gracepoint.
I remember instances in undergrad and postgrad being corrected over my clothing, for not talking enough, and even for not smiling enough or looking bored.
DeleteOmg this happened to me. I felt so ashamed and like there was something wrong with me. In some ways I'm still not over it
"I remember instances in undergrad and postgrad being corrected over my clothing, for not talking enough, and even for not smiling enough or looking bored."
DeleteIt's been years since graduation just received this feedback AGAIN, and it sucked. But at the heart of it was a desire to grow in me self control as well as others' centeredness. I know it sounds trite, but seriously no one is completely 100% self aware, and the way someone perceives you might not be the same way you intend to come off. Explaining and proving the other person wrong in their accusation is one easy way to deal with (skirt) the problem, but the harder and more reconciling way is to pause, consider if it's possible that the feedback could be true from their perspective, and apologize, because the fact is you still came off a certain way. Jesus did nothing wrong, but he DIED for our sins. "Anyone who claims he is without sin makes himself to be a liar..." If that's what we proclaim and believe, why is feedback over clothing, the effect of your presence/facial expression such a hard pill to swallow? This isn't gaslighting, this is just hard to hear because no one wants to be wrong....
@Anon at 5:12 PM
DeleteI'm glad you felt that at the heart of your leader was a desire for you to grow but you can't say that's true of every leader at Gracepoint. In fact, I think overcorrecting and exercising such tight control over another person is a symptom of something very wrong and toxic in the leader and in the culture at Gracepoint. Let's not compare petty corrections to Jesus's death on the cross. Your argument doesn't even make sense. Since Jesus endured death for our sake, we should be able to endure any and all corrections even when there is no validity or merit to them? Just in case they might be right? Doesn't make sense.
Throw your tone deaf pity and crocodile tears back to the pathetic leadership at GP. I once thought GP was serious about incrementally changing from what I saw with Jeannie Lee and Kevan Ho but now that I've actually dug way deeper and talked to people from the 25 years, their changes are minimal. The entire damn leadership at GP is rotten to the core. Are you aware of the statements and actions that the leadership at GP such as James and Claire Kim, Steve and Suzanne Suh, Joshua and Jacqui Wang, Peter Choi, Mike and Joanna Kang, Jon and Carol Chou, Richard Thjen, and Andy Tung just to name a few, that have pushed a lot of people away from Christianity? And you think it's just the people that have issues with this cult? I know family members who are coming to the realization they lost a child to this church. Do you also want to talk about the number of people who've had mental health issues and trauma that this church has literally tossed aside and called them a "threat to the church”?
ReplyDeleteIf GP really gave a shit, tell Pastor Ed and Kelly Kang to stop publicly gaslighting in front of the church and scorning these victims and claiming they are highly emotional. WTF was that class at ATTR that Roy Lo did? You don't think many of has have tried to reconcile? They push you out and then spread lies about you to fully character assassinate you. Also, why is Pastor Ed so scared and telling you guys not to read the blogs? Probably because he know it's the damn truth of how ugly they really are internally.
Do you think it's the just the top? I have heard tons of shit of what the leaders have done even in Element. It's the same story that repeats itself. I don't think you realize how much damage, trauma, and deconversions have been caused by GP's lies and manipulation. A healthy church doesn't need to publicly announce a disclaimer that they are "exempt from ministry malpractice" or "ministry hurt is normal". Where's the actual repentance and apologies? To me those statements are just deflections. Steve Suh can privately tell me he's really sorry but his actions prove otherwise. You're deluded for staying at that church and believing these lies that they really care about the people they claim to be ministering to. They only care when you advance their agenda otherwise you're irrelevant. I may still respect these people as friends but I've lost all respect to them as ministers these past couple of years. Also, kind of pathetic, you've been in the church for 6 years and I'm probably more aware of what goes on as an outsider who's left for some time now. You need to get a reality check of who God really is if you keep believing that these charlatans are biblical.
Has these actually been announced in Element or some other GP event: "exempt from ministry malpractice", "ministry hurt is normal"
Deleteyou can probably find that information here in their waivers - http://www.elementyouthgroup.com/forms
DeleteYes it was said at 2019 ATR - “we are not exempt from ministry malpractice” and “ministry hurt is normal and happens at all churches” was said by a SoCal lead. Like great you acknowledged the harm you’ve caused but then you normalized it instead of taking ownership , “accepting the truth about your sins,” and repenting. So close.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Delete"I know family members who are coming to the realization they lost a child to this church. " and "They only care when you advance their agenda otherwise you're irrelevant." stands out painfully for me, I am a parent, and I am wondering why there are not more parents talking about this
DeleteDefinitely don't see this "incremental change" in Kevan Ho's wife. Numerous stories about her
ReplyDeleteWhat did Jenny do?
DeleteYes, she asked someone who came to my homegroup to talk to her in a room at Sierra Lodge and accused her of something that she didn't even do. It was someone else, but Jenny wouldn't believe her. She yelled at her and called her a liar for 40 minutes until she gave a false confession and then had to write a lordship decision card after the girl admitted she was a sinner who didn't prioritize ministry and God. After the truth came out that she was innocent, no apology.
DeleteCould you elaborate a little bit? I’m curious to know what kind of stories they are. Back when I was in Klesis, I don’t remember she was super involved.
DeleteIf that's not spiritual abuse I don't know what is. It sounds like a straight up Guantanamo Bay level water boarding and should be immediately filed to the school campus admin.
DeleteMy roommate once complained about something Jenny's group did. Jenny heard and had a "talk" (screaming session) with her, accusing her of all things including not submitting lordship to Jesus. I've never seen her so traumatized. The worst part is, later she tried to reach out to Jenny about that, no response.
Deletewhy so many f'ed up people are in the leadership position in this church. What made it worse is she's the wife of the ministry lead.
Deletea church is always full of sinners but I think the issue I have is there's no accountability or effective removal of people who do these type of things.
DeleteSorry I don't agree with the sinner argument. You can't use "sinner" to explain such extreme behaviors. When such screaming rebuking behavior is even encouraged and widely practiced within the church, it's not a problem of accountability or removal anymore. Like many others said, it's a church level core value issue.
DeleteI would like to connect with parents (who are struggling) of GP members who are still active in GP. My husband and I never discouraged our child who graduated from UC Davis and now working -- dodging our question why working in a bigger city is a bad idea. Giving to church is all fine by us but if they are not saving anything and "sharing everything" are all signs that this is definitely unhealthy. After watching testimonials in many of the past sermons posted all over Youtube -- I am convinced that the strive for being exemplary Christians etc selfless and "we are all broken people and there is nothing more important as serving God" (at the expense of family/parental relationships??) clearly shows that the kids right out of dorm are targeted because it is then that they are most vulnerable.
ReplyDeleteAs a parent, who grew up in a secular environment, and my husband resistant to his parents' confusing spiritual journeys, we are cognizant that we have two monumental obstacles: one, our child spewing verses from the Bible on demand, displaying that the book can explain all actions and behaviors. Two, that as Asians, we are prone to be accused that we are trying to control our child's actions. Any insight regarding these two points, please share from either as an ex-member and a parents, please
DeleteI hope you are able to connect to other parents through the subreddit. I created a post for you to connect with other parents: https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/
DeleteDear parent above, Yes, as Asian parents we feel the stereotype threat of the "tiger mom" ever present with us. I'm sorry that this stereotype makes us hesitant to do what we feel we need to do as parents. I'm sure it has affected the way I parent too. I do not have a child at Gracepoint but as a parent now of younger children, if it was up to me, I would NEVER let my child attend Gracepoint. When they go to college, I will warn them to stay away from Gracepoint or any of their affiliated ministries (it's tricky now, with so many different names they use).
DeleteI don't it's productive to spew bible verses back to your child but continue to show your child love and grace and keep reaching out. Tell them you want to spend time with them and hang out with them. Show them that your love is unconditional, even if they are spending all their time and money on Gracepoint. Hopefully, your message will break through one day.
I am parent of a freshman who is starting to be absorbed into the campus a2f culture, while in the meantime I sensed his cutting communication with me and the personal bible reading time. Not sure if it’s related to college challenge then I came across this and it’s so shocking. Not sure if it’s related or if his SoCal a2f acts anything differently. Desperately want to reach out to other Christian parents or past exit still maintaining faith in church on how how to help our kids current in school staying on the right spiritual track. The Reddit subgroup created seems just general stuff on this church:https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/
ReplyDeleteNew to Reddit, pls direct where to reach other current parents.
Please read as many posts as you can on the reddit page and reach out to any of us on there. The subreddit is not about general church stuff for Gracepoint/a2f. Gracepoint is the church behind a2f and the Reddit page talks about all the ways Gracepoint manipulates people and is spiritually abusive.
DeleteThere are a few other parents on there too so please do connect with them. Take a few hours to read through the posts and comments. It will help you a lot and show you how your child is being slowly sucked in.
DeleteTo answer your question directly, all the Gracepoint groups are essentially the same. It doesn't matter if it's SoCal or a2f, or any one of the other many student groups that they have.
DeleteMany of us have tried and failed to protect our loved ones from the organization. Ed and Kelly's org has a natural advantage in proximity: we send our children to school far away from our home, while they latch on locally. Having failed to stop this, there is very little advice we can offer. Only support in knowing that you are not alone.
Delete