Dear Readers,
The holidays can be a time of even-more-than-usual grief and sadness for some of us. There are many unrecognized expectations from within and without that make it impossible for us to simply be. Expectations can come in the following forms:
The holidays can be a time of even-more-than-usual grief and sadness for some of us. There are many unrecognized expectations from within and without that make it impossible for us to simply be. Expectations can come in the following forms:
- preparing elaborate meals
- making something delicious
- hosting
- being with family
- not being with family
- having meals with family
- having a good time
- enjoying everyone's company
- being generous
- being grateful
- acting cheerful and excited (when you're not)
- being nice to people, who are not nice to us
- celebrating
Whatever we do or not do, I hope we can all be gentle with ourselves and start to shed some of these expectations that are more burdensome than life-giving. Perhaps we can use the holidays as an opportunity to finally start learning to say no. Start with something small like asking for that drink to be extra hot and sending it back when it's not. Say no to making two stops all the way across town on the same day. Say no to chipping in on an expensive gift. It will all work out.
During my Berkland days, I felt pressure to keep my holiday time with my family short so that I could spend time with my "real" family. I would give free rides to folks from Berkeley to LA and pick them up and drop them off all over Los Angeles and Orange County. It didn't occur to me that I could say no. Or that doesn't work for me. Saying no was very dangerous in that culture as it could be easily labeled as selfish, ungrateful, unspiritual, unchristian, disobedient, lazy, etc...
Give yourself permission to rest this season. You have already done enough. You are fully accepted just as you are. Jesus never healed someone based on their qualifications. He healed everyone who asked. And even some who didn't want to get healed, he healed. And he didn't say, I'm such an amazing loving God, I healed you even when you didn't deserve it. No. He said, your faith has healed you. He gave the credit to those who were healed. God's presence is never contingent on our deservedness. You are already accepted. You are already home.
Happy Thanksgiving John.
ReplyDeleteThank you, John, and everyone else for being here for one another. Happy Thanksgiving!
ReplyDeleteThanks John.
ReplyDeleteAlways appreciated
Thank you so much for posting this. I left Gracepoint 2.5 years ago but I still open this blog about once a month. Please continue to post these reminders as I still have trouble living confidently where God has placed me and how He's continually shaping me.
ReplyDeleteTrust that you are held.
DeleteI echo this sentiment a lot. As sad as it may sound, on the few occasions I declined, it felt so good to say no and to not have to worry with the logistics of another task. I enjoyed the freedom and free time. It actually brought me joy and relief. Maybe too much `:)
ReplyDeleteNever too much joy.
DeleteI too had to learn to say no after leaving.
ReplyDeleteI'm curious how a current member reconciles this culture or accepts it as is.
The way this played out in my head when I was going was: "I can't put my life first because that's sinful. I need to sacrifice my life and my own needs because that's what Jesus did and I need to be like him."
DeleteThe way I hear it plays out now is: "I can't be everything to everyone all the time. I have a choice on what I do and don't do. God gave me free will. Can I help with a genuine and willing heart? Will this lead to resentment? I don't want resentment to poison my relationship with anyone. Is this my responsibility? I was asked, not told. I have the right to say no. It is not my responsibility to save anyone, nor can I.
This is my first holiday season after leaving Gracepoint and it was so relieving to visit without having messages pounded into my head such as:
ReplyDelete-you have to behave perfectly with your family or else you are a bad witness
-your conversations are required to include trying to convert your loved one
-you need to pressure your family to engage in reccomended relationship building activities with you such as board games. TV is unacceptable unless you are watching a childrens movie
-you need to spend every spare minute equipping yourself or serving your family
- spend as little time at home as possible to maximize your time being back for gp events
I relate!
DeleteHow did your family feel about that at the time?
DeleteI found this blog and wanted to add that I used to go to ABSK in boston, and Rebekah Kim is a psycho!!! She told us matter-of-factly that 2012 was when the world would end, because the "3 millenniums" represent the 3 days Christ died. WTF? The bible clearly says no one knows the time and place.
ReplyDeleteOther things about the church:
1) she had to approve who you dated
2) you had to attend bible study every weekend or you were admonished
3) she made undergraduates donate tithings even though we were making ZERO DOLLARS AND IN DEBT
I am glad I left that church but wow what a crazy place
Hi Christine. Are you, or anyone you know, familiar with Becky's religious background? Where was she trained to administer that form of Christianity?
DeleteWow. I didn't know she went so far as to predict the end of times! That is insane.
DeleteIsn't it UBF? There are a few blogs on UBF and I can see the similarities and possibly the roots of GP.
ReplyDeleteFrom what I've seen, GP policy is to feign ignorance of Becky's UBF past. Which is understandable since acknowledging Ed and Kelly Kangs' direct UBF lineage might encourage members to discover eerily similar practices, and the actual reasons behind them; all widely condemned by the mainstream Christian community. I'm curious whether Becky's ABSK congregants are aware of her UBF roots.
DeleteYes, Becky Kim has roots in UBF (while she was in Korea) and in America, I believe she went to/was a part of, Berendo Bapstist Church in Los Angeles. Berendo was a "feeder" church to Berkland when I was there and many youth who went to Cal for college were recommended to attend Berkland. See History post, part 1.
DeleteI genuinely have a heart for the people at Gracepoint. I miss the fellowship and memories there and I love the people. But I don't agree with the church structure. I left Gracepoint this year and found a biblical church that I feel much more confident about committing to. There are many contrasts I've seen, but I will just name a few.
ReplyDeleteIn the member classes of my new church, one of the first things my head pastor said was he acknowledges there's many solid churches out there and if we did not find ourselves fit he would be glad to help us find a solid biblical church out there. But at the same time he was confident in the leadership of the church elders and shepards. He clearly stated that he wants the church's member list remain as accurate as it can be to the Book of Life, i.e. the names written who will be in the kingdom of God in the afterlife. This completely contrasted to Gracepoint's pressure to get you to stay as a member after you graduate.
Also, many testimonies in Gracepoint are revised though include genuine life stories but at the same time share many similar conclusions such as "I now prioritize church and make sure to attend bible studies and sacrifice my time and resources". Too many times it genuinely almost sounds like that's what they believe their salvation is found upon at the root of their hearts, though the preached theology may say otherwise.
Note that 1 Corinthians 13 says "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal." (ESV) If any serving you are doing is not driven by a genuine love for God you are doing absolutely nothing. It's completely possible to serve and do righteous deeds while being very prideful and self righteous.
Now am I saying that every person in Gracepoint is legalistic? No. I just believe the structure of Gracepoint gives too much room for legalism to occur and it's undermining the church. I personally cannot confidently recommend Gracepoint to an incoming freshman.
John, my name is also John Kim. I attended Berkland Baptist Church from 1986 to 1990. I stumbled on your blog while looking up Berkland Baptist Church. I drove by the old Alcatraz building today and was curious to see if the church was still around. I find your blog very informative as I considered it a cult back in 1990, when I was finally able to break free. When did you attend Berkland? Looking forward to reading through your entire blog.
ReplyDeleteThanks for reading. I attended a while back, but after your time. I hope you're well and that you can share more about your experience.
DeleteHi John,
ReplyDeleteI was a staff member at the GP for 2018-2019 year, but left due to family circumstances. (which btw they wholeheartedly accepted and didn't try to make me stay) I was curious about your Berkland days. As far as I know GP broke off from Berkland in 2006? That sounds like a long time ago, considering how so much can change in 4 years as a college student. Was wondering how you can claim that nothing has changed when you haven't been in GP for at least 14 years now? (that's as old as a freshmen in high school lol). Cause for me, they told me that I should go home and love my parents and actually got pretty disappointed in me for working on ministry stuff when I should have been loving my parents and resting. So, I wasn't pressured into doing stuff for GP, I was actually told to do the opposite. They sat me down and explained that because of church and working life, I don't get to see my family that often, so why wouldn't spend the time that you have with them? So from my experience, I can see how you can think that they want you to spend all of your time with church, but they do express concern if you don't spend a lot of time with your family.
I personally think a lot of things are 50-50 these days with how staff behave and act. I would say that in some ways GP as a whole recognizes that changes need to be made in some aspects and some staff are moving toward that (s/o to the CMU crew, some of the deacons, some of the Berkeley and UCLA staff). I would still say I still continue to hear a very high volume of stupid statements being made from staff in general. I have one peer, who left last year, who was pressured by his staff at a church to change his flights to visit his sister, who he rarely sees since she's in med school, last minute because of a church retreat and constantly handing him the precedence bullshit. If anything you should praise the Lord, your staff wasn't as short sighted as the other ones. When you have something as pathetic as GLOMAP to govern your decision making rather than God's wisdom and the Holy Spirit, something is just wrong with that picture. Don't take your experience as the norm, if anything it's the exception.
Delete^I'm guessing we're peers from SD lol. I heard the same story and I really think it depends on who you have as a leader. When I left, it was fairly gracious, but I've heard some really stupid stuff.
Deletelike 90% of your gp experience comes down to your leader. you could grow a lot and have a great time or your life could be a living nightmare if your leader is controlling and on a power trip
Delete^LOL i know who you are then. And yes it was one of our SD peers. I am, however, your peer from berkeley.
DeleteWhat's GLOMAP?
ReplyDeletesome weird acronym pastor ed came up with to govern decision making. they teach it at new interns training and it's pretty much never brought up outside of that
DeleteThat's I remember too, but at the same time, they still bring up certain key terms from GLOMAP like precedence and ministry as their justification.
DeleteWhat are the words for the rest of the acrononym? If someone cares to do so, I'd like to hear what the words mean and how it's applied before I make a judgment of whether it's bad or not. The problem might not be in the words as much as the people who are using it/came up with it.
DeleteI'm not sure about some of the letters but I do remember something along the lines of
DeleteO for "oneness in community"
M for "ministry"
P for "precedence" (btw this was by far one of the most bullshit ones they had. It was like whatever the leaders declared was the rule for the year. I remember they went from the no dating one year to allowing seniors to date, back to no dating. It's basically at the leaders whim)
Can anyone else chime in?
I know someone who is still part of GP. While I cannot verify the accuracy of the statement apparently the reasoning given to staff was that they needed more young couples to help stabilize and send off to the new church plants. This is now going into my opinion. Who would of thought that it would not be a good idea sending on mass a bunch of single bachelors off into who knows where for years? Yes those people with their limited to no dating experience and limited to no dating pool because of a church only dating policy in a brand new and now spread apart area. Back in California, they had at least enough of a circle to have options church wide. At least those bachelors got the free time to outreach right?
DeleteTo me, that just make me shake my head. It was not a matter of change of heart based on scripture or lived experience. If this above statement was correct, it would have been because there it was a logistical and politically savvy move for GP to continue sustained expansion. More couples mean more early marriages and more stable churches. As for why they changed it back? I wasn't aware of that. Who knows, it's a top down system.
How can I talk to someone about getting my student out of this Church? It’s bad now. They are turning my student
Deleteagainst his family. I’m ready to get authorities involved if needed.
Who approves my comment? What?
DeleteI approve all comments unless they are clearly spam. I'm sorry to hear about your student. I am not sure what you can do if the student is an adult.
DeleteIt's not that they want to turn them against their family. They simply want his full commitment for years to come, and family can be a competing commitment. Think of it as a pyramid scheme. They need to indoctrinate the new member with minimal distraction and time away from the organization, so they could deploy them to help grow the organization. They still need the family to continue to pay the tuition, room, and while the student is at school.
DeleteI don’t know what authorities you could get involved in this, but if you succeed or have ideas, please share with the rest of us.
I think peers have a HUGE influence too. In my particular peer group, everything was brought was up to leaders. Everything that happend between us was told to leaders. On the other hand, I also had leaders who told my peers info without my permission. The justification was that it was "good for unity". I also lived with peers who felt that nearly everything HAD to be modeled after leaders and older sisters. Our apartment/house had to be set up a certain way and organized a specific way. We had to chores how the older classmen did theirs. It was wild to me and I was usually the only one who offered any disagreement, so I just stopped speaking up. If there was a message or DT that offered suggestions, my peers wanted us to immediately follow that suggestion down to the letter. If I brought any of this up to leaders, I was told that none of this was "required" by the church. But if I didnt do these things, I was labeled as not in the core group and not as spiritual. I think this is how a lot of the gp culture is justified these days. Somethings aren't a written policy somewhere but the pressure to conform is so incredibly strong.
ReplyDeletei think it makes sense. the people who stick around in gp and do well are the people who love being told what to do and don't think for themselves. if ur a free thinker then you wont do well in gp
DeleteThis rings very true to my experience.
DeleteA question to the former members: what did your families think about your involvement while you were a part of GP or any affiliates? Did they know something was wrong?
ReplyDeleteA family member of mine had heard things and tried to warn me but I didn't really respect this person's opinions so I blew it off. While I was immersed in it, I wasn't that close to my family (my family isn't that close) so they didn't really know what was going on.
DeleteFor me, no my family was not that concerned partly because I never really talked about the extent of my involvement and time commitment. Heck, at the time even I did see it as normal since it was the church culture and everyone was suppose to"live life on life." This meant spend copious amounts of time with your peers in ministerial and just about most of your free time.
DeleteThe next part is anecdotal, but I used to have a leader my first year whom had talked to me about his concerns for me returning home. I would usually drive back home once every 3-4 weeks to see my folks. I remember him distinctly pulling me aside for a talk addressing why I should not return home as often as it was bad for the cohesion of my class and my own spiritual growth.
In my experience, I am not that close to my family so they didnt really know. I also did not disclose to them the amount of time that I was spending with the community. What I observed from people who were closer to their family is that it was almost always a source of conflict. I cant think of anyone in my peers whose family was happy with their level of involvement. That's also with their families not knowing the extent of control that the community had on the individual.
DeleteLooking back I realize now that it was a red flag that I felt like I hide the extent of the community to classmates, coworkers, outside friends and family.
Did virtually all of you find yourself being secretive or not fully honest with your family about what was going on with you at gp?
Deletei wouldn’t say secretive. That implies that I would have felt that something that I was doing was wrong or shameful. I don’t think I’ve ever felt compelled to hide something. Involvement in Church wasn’t really anything like confessing if I’d gone partying, drinking or some other illicit college stereotyped activity.
DeleteBut, I can relate to not being fully honest. The most I can say is not being fully open with my family About my college life. This could be a cultural thing but with family what was expected was doing well in school to prepare for a suitable career (which is true). What I felt at the time was that there was a divergence in values between me and my family. Looking back As I got more involved, I think I just assumed that they wouldn’t understand why I was doing what I was doing. I guess I didn’t want to be judged for wasting so much of my time in things that I imagined they would find disapproving of.
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DeleteDid you at the time suspect that there was something off about gp? And I don't mean like every organization has its problems. But something seriously wrong at the very core of it?
DeleteI'll put it simply, I wouldn't say that my family members didn't really care about how much I involved myself with GP. I think my old youth leaders (Cal alumni), youth pastor, and my dad could all piece together immediately that GP was a very legalistic church due to its conservative and Korean culture. So they knew exactly what would happen when I started pushing back. I don't think to them it was something wrong but more of it's a common issue among the Asian conservative Christian circles. And if you think Gracepoint is bad, wait till you see Grace Community Church, they cross even more lines than GP that are borderline misogyny. Eventually, when I went back to my home church, a LOT of parents from UCLA, Berkeley, Davis, and UCSD all voiced a lot of concerns about their kids being at the GP churches on those campuses. Though they appreciated Gracepoint challenging them in their faith and growing in their faith, a lot of them felt that the church had begun crossing lines into controlling their lives. I think you have to be on both sides to understand what's going on and how to resolve it. As I matured more in faith, I've learned to appreciate Gracepoint's intent but push back on execution and meditate both sides. @amd if you want to talk more in depth, I would be happy to take this offline.
DeleteAs far appreciating gp later in your recovery, you’re among the lucky few that emerged undamaged. I’d say that roughly one third the former members I have spoken with were able to find a real church and grow stronger in their faith, as you probably have. Of the rest, some struggle to figure out how to move forward; while others have turned away from Christianity entirely, disgusted by their faith after it was used by Ed & company to ensnare and control them for years.
DeleteI would discuss publicly as much as you are willing to share so that others in need of healing may find this. All of you survivors of gp are of great help to more recent victims and their families, and your knowledge is very much appreciated by those who are suffering today. I’d definitely take you up on your offer to discuss offline anything that you’d rather not post.
I think I was just very fortunate that I had a very strong support system inside and outside of the GP.
Delete@amd lmk how I can reach you and I'll send you an email
I do agree that they set very conservative standards and guardrails and their mantra is to "err on the side of safety", which is a good principle but sometimes it can feel too stifling and can have negative consequences.
DeleteI remember they gave an analogy once about a mountain road that had guardrails too close to the edge. And although it was fine for most drivers, it did lead to a couple of deaths. The mindset is, even if the guardrail seems too much, preventing 1-2 deaths is worth it. They have very good intentions and it does show how highly they value purity, marriage, not wanting their members to fall into addiction, etc. And I still do agree with some of their stances and practices, like heavily discouraging alcohol and having married people not meet 1x1 with people of the opposite gender.
However, I do think issues arise when the some of their more conservative practices becomes the "standard" that everyone must do and crossing the guardrail can easily feel like committing sin. Although leaders do say that crossing the guardrail itself isn't sin, I think people, especially younger people, can easily interpret it as so. It can go like "oh I didn't do this, that just shows how careless and unloving I am because I'm allowing the potential for an ounce of sin."
An example is being in the car together. My leader actually said that it's okay to be in the car together if it's a short distance but discourages it if you're driving far (like visiting parents who are 3+ hrs away). So what happens is you both drive separately to the same city and yes, while you can talk on the phone during the time there or whatnot, it is a bit odd to not just spend time together in a car ride. I personally do not think I would be tempted to do anything with the person I'm dating while driving or at a rest stop. And I think experiencing what it's like to be in the car together for a decently long period of time would be good to see your compatibility and just a nice bonding experience in general. But if I tried to push back on that, I would be seen as "trusting myself too much" or not understanding temptation or not guarding the purity of the person I'm dating or that the potential for sin outweighs any benefit for in-person connection. But isn't that for both of us to decide and not a standard that they try to blanket apply to everyone? Yes, it does take some very honest looks at yourself to see what you could be tempted by, but people are tempted by different things at different levels, and if both of us aren't tempted by it, then I don't think we should have to adhere to it. So things like these should be a suggestion, but they're often not just a suggestion, but rather a very strong suggestion. And it is harder to push back if both of you guys are staff, are called to be role models for your students, being obedient to your leaders, and are called to pass down GP values.
It doesn't seem like the guardrails themselves are the real problem, it's that leaders in GP use them for power/control over their subjects, not just as mere suggestions to prevent them from committing sin. From what I have heard, GP believes that if even one person could be corrupted by something, they should just ban it for everyone, even those who would realistically have no chance of being corrupted. By their own logic, they should probably ban teaching the Word of God since it has been misused to justify countless atrocities throughout the history of the world...
DeleteSorry, this was meant to be a response to another post
DeleteIn that case, to answer the original question, my parents were aware of the true nature of GP, though they weren't too concerned about it, since I wasn't going to become a leader or stay part of GP after I graduated. Which was true, since I figured given my strengths/weaknesses, life goals, and personality, being a GP leader was not a good fit for me and I probably would have hated it.
DeleteThere were a few times I felt suspicious about GP during my time there, but I brushed it off since I didn't have enough evidence to make a proper conclusion. One in particular was when the staff presented about GP plants in North Carolina, and they acted like those students don't have any churches to attend, and I was thinking "there can't really be ZERO churches in the area". I probably just thought maybe what churches they did have there were inadequate or something, and after all I wasn't an expert on that stuff. However, after learning about GP's true nature behind the scenes, I know that NC just lacked churches that agree with GP's philosophies.
I'm curious, what about your strengths/weaknesses, life goals, and personality made you think that being a GP leader would not be a good fit?
DeleteBecause the GP leaders know GP isn't for everyone and certain types of peeople really thrive there and genuinely grow in their relationship with God there. So I'm just curious on what your thoughts are.
I'm not sure entirely, but I think I just wasn't innately passionate enough about God to be a GP leader. While I did find that I learned a lot from talks and discussions at GP, I just never wanted to be doing that stuff nearly every single hour of my life like my peers were. And sometimes at events I would be feeling miserable deep down inside because my mind was occupied with all the school assignments I would need to finish within the next 72 hours. And there were some other parts of my personality, for example, my rather crude sense of humor, that would have been considered taboo as a GP leader. So if I were to become an effective leader in GP, I probably would have needed to overhaul significant aspects of my personality or put up a facade most of the time, which just wouldn't be sustainable or even moral.
DeleteAs for life goals, I knew from the time that I started college that the only viable options for me were either to go to graduate school or get a job in the software engineering industry once I graduated, and I wasn't going to let GP interfere with that. And with how competitive that can be, it's far from certain that I would successfully find opportunities in regions where GP operates. Then of course, there's how GP controls or influences every major aspect of leaders' lives. I would not want to need to worry about my life choices being potentially detrimental to GP's outward image. And I certainly would not have wanted to be pressured into dating/marriage/having kids after reaching a certain level of spiritual maturity, or having to think about the hundreds of restrictions regarding that stuff.
Ultimately, while I was able to benefit from GP in some ways, it was best that I chose not to become a leader there. I don't think it's out of the question that there could be a time when I am called to lead others to God. It's just that GP certainly wasn't that.
I'm really surprised no one has mentioned this but Gracepoint has been operating like a lot more like a shady parent company that keeps creating a bunch of shell companies and disbands them and starts anew when the internet starts to criticize them. It seems like they are aware their Gracepoint/GP brand isn't too well received. They have been doing a lot more "mentorship" type of focuses and a lot of bait and switches for career counseling. I only know about this because I'm following some GP people on IG and based on association, IG's algorithm is suddenly recommending a lot of different pages like Cal MENtorship or [Men]tality Riverside. Obviously, I think it's quite pathetic GP refuses to address mental health on the inside of their church but is so aggressively invested outside their church. There's a lot more of these groups that are popping up under the GP umbrella right now that I'm too lazy to go dig up but whoever's digging around online, I think you should at least be informed that they are 100% associated with Gracepoint.
ReplyDeleteWhen you start looking at accounts that follow each other, it looks like this mentorship thing is happening at several locations. I found one for Texas called thirdspace. It seems like all of these accounts are very up front about it being college alumni there to mentor students. Maybe this is a way to try to make it less weird to the students about all of the staff being out of college.
DeleteWhen you dig around, it seems that GP has just launched a whole group of these programs across campuses.
ReplyDeleteThanks john for keeping the conversation alive over the last decade. The blog has been helpful for me and I am thinking for many others to sort through their thoughts, experiences and emotions after leaving GP.
ReplyDeleteI'm curious why this is the only blog about gracepoint/ berkland? I know that this church has left a lasting impact on anyone who has been there long enough for better or worse. The last comment got me thinking if GP has such a big emphasis on proxy groups and social media why is it that most other forums or blogs from former members nonexistent?
There were numerous blogs and even a forum at one point. My understanding is that some blogs reported being hacked. Some blogs literally just disappeared. There is one still up called Gracepoint Zombies and there may be others. http://gracepointzombies.blogspot.com/
DeleteNow GP people have all revived their social media accounts during this shelter-in-place after blasting how bad Facebook is just so they can spam themselves on social media about their same old apologetics talks. GP leadership really makes themselves to be really stupid some times making up rules and saying whatever just to fit and protect their culture.
ReplyDeleteVery curious to hear about what y’all think about this: https://www.gracepointonline.org/is-gracepoint-a-cult
ReplyDeleteThis is a new page on their own website addressing the question of whether or not they are a cult. Thoughts?
"Like many churches, we’ve received criticism throughout the years, some of it well-deserved, and some very off-base."
DeleteFunny, they don't specify which criticisms fall into which category. Also, according to Gracepoint leaders, 100% of the criticism they levy at members is well-deserved and 0% is off-base.
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"On the whole our members love being a part of our ministry."
That's because everyone who DOESN'T love it never becomes a member. No true Scotsman
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"We're a typical evangelical church with a standard Statement of Faith."
I don't see anything in that Statement of Faith about dating, social media, television, or confessing every last detail of your life to your leader. Matthew 15:9
Original poster here. Thanks for your thoughts. When I was reading your second point, one thing that came to mind was, what if there are some people who DON'T love it there but for whatever reason feel compelled to stay?
DeleteFor me the biggest thing that struck me while reading the page is how much they allude to their belonging to networks and partnering with "well-known, mainstream Christian educators and organizations" in an effort to boost their ethos, as if these facts alone are proof that they are not a cult.
They may have created the page just so that it shows up on searches first. It doesn't seem to be linked from any page on their website. I could be wrong.
DeleteThat is what it seems like.
Delete