See Part 1 and Part 2 in the blog archives.
The period of 1995-2005 was one of growth and multiplication for Berkland Baptist Church (BBC). It was also a period of growing dissatisfaction and division among the leaders in their feelings toward Rebekah Kim and her leadership of BBC.
Becky Kim was intimately involved in many details of running all the BBC churches. She appointed the leaders of the new churches and made reassignments. The top leaders during this time included:
There were BBC wide gatherings of the pastors not infrequently. Leadership retreats/meetings were days long.
I just re-read "The Letter" that Ed Kang wrote to Becky Kim. It is dated August 22, 2005. I am not going to post the letter (do not ask me for it) but some excerpts can be found in the blog archives. According to the letter, there were pastors' meetings at Boston, Daegu (Korea) and Irvine. There was growing concern about Rebekah Kim's behavior, harsh rebuking and shaming of her disciples in a public manner, and overall lack of humility and accountability. Andy Lee's affair is mentioned, along with many other incidents. Ed Kang says he tried his best to give her feedback but that she rationalized her behaviors and never repented.
It's clear that Ed Kang had had enough. In The Letter, he states his intention to vacate the Alcatraz building as soon as possible but to stay in the area and "minister to those who will follow my leadership apart from BBC." Most readers will know that Berkland Baptist Church split after this. This article for Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary Alumni published in the Fall of 2009 identifies all 15 as Berkland churches but according to this blog, the split was effective as of January 1, 2006. Some churches decided to stay affiliated with each other but many went their own way. BBC Boston changed it's name to Antioch Baptist Church in 2011 according their website. Many other churches changed their names too.
Thus, Gracepoint was born. And the organization's tentacles are spreading like wildfire to college towns all over the United States. Is this a sign that the church is being used by God to expand God's Kingdom? Or is it a sign of the military like control and power that the leaders have over their sheep? Is it OK to hurt and discard people when they don't serve your purpose as long as you believe that the purpose aligns with the Great Commission? What does it say about a church when all the staff are home grown (quite incestuous actually) and no one from the "outside" ever obtains a position of influence?
As flawed as my current church is, I am grateful that I get to experience a growing freedom in my understanding of God and in my relationship with the God of the universe. I don't spend most of my days at church events. My church doesn't tell me where to live or who to live with or who to marry. I am encouraged to love God and love others as myself without feeling like I have to be tired all the time to prove how much I love them.
There can be no love without freedom. Jesus never forced anyone to do anything they didn't want to do. He is standing at the door and knocking. He asks to be invited in. It's always been an invitation. Guilt and shame may work for a while, but they can never free us from ourselves.
If you've been hurt by Berkland or Gracepoint, I pray for a growing tenderness and a complete spiritual and emotional healing. God never wastes pain.
The period of 1995-2005 was one of growth and multiplication for Berkland Baptist Church (BBC). It was also a period of growing dissatisfaction and division among the leaders in their feelings toward Rebekah Kim and her leadership of BBC.
Becky Kim was intimately involved in many details of running all the BBC churches. She appointed the leaders of the new churches and made reassignments. The top leaders during this time included:
- Ed Kang and Kelly Kang at BBC Berkeley, the largest.
- YB Im and Sue Im led the San Jose/Silicon Valley branch and then started BBC LA in 2003, which is now called Life Baptist Church in West LA. I believe his name is Daniel now. See side note below.
- Chris Pak and Sally Pak served at BBC Boston. Stared one of the churches. Anyone know which one? Currently pastors Bridgeway Church in Palo Alto.
- Andy Pak started/served at BBC Irvine. Not sure where he is now.
- Peter Lee and Eunice Lee started BBC New York and BBC LA (?), started missions/churches in Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, and Moscow. Also started BBC Washington DC in 20002, renamed Worthy Life Baptist Church and is affiliated with Antioch Baptist Church ("West Coast Retreat" held together with Philadelphia Mission Baptist Church. Philadelphia Mission Baptist Church self proclaims as a church plant of Antioch Baptist Church.)
(Interesting side note: Many Berklanders (yes, that's what they were called) were encouraged to change their names from Korean names to more Americanized/Biblical names around the late 1990's. There are at least seven persons currently on staff at Gracepoint who have changed their names. This shows the type of control that the culture and leaders had over the congregation. I am not saying that they were coerced but it's worth noting.)
There were BBC wide gatherings of the pastors not infrequently. Leadership retreats/meetings were days long.
It's clear that Ed Kang had had enough. In The Letter, he states his intention to vacate the Alcatraz building as soon as possible but to stay in the area and "minister to those who will follow my leadership apart from BBC." Most readers will know that Berkland Baptist Church split after this. This article for Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary Alumni published in the Fall of 2009 identifies all 15 as Berkland churches but according to this blog, the split was effective as of January 1, 2006. Some churches decided to stay affiliated with each other but many went their own way. BBC Boston changed it's name to Antioch Baptist Church in 2011 according their website. Many other churches changed their names too.
Thus, Gracepoint was born. And the organization's tentacles are spreading like wildfire to college towns all over the United States. Is this a sign that the church is being used by God to expand God's Kingdom? Or is it a sign of the military like control and power that the leaders have over their sheep? Is it OK to hurt and discard people when they don't serve your purpose as long as you believe that the purpose aligns with the Great Commission? What does it say about a church when all the staff are home grown (quite incestuous actually) and no one from the "outside" ever obtains a position of influence?
As flawed as my current church is, I am grateful that I get to experience a growing freedom in my understanding of God and in my relationship with the God of the universe. I don't spend most of my days at church events. My church doesn't tell me where to live or who to live with or who to marry. I am encouraged to love God and love others as myself without feeling like I have to be tired all the time to prove how much I love them.
There can be no love without freedom. Jesus never forced anyone to do anything they didn't want to do. He is standing at the door and knocking. He asks to be invited in. It's always been an invitation. Guilt and shame may work for a while, but they can never free us from ourselves.
If you've been hurt by Berkland or Gracepoint, I pray for a growing tenderness and a complete spiritual and emotional healing. God never wastes pain.
For those of you that know Ed - what do you think motivates him? What is his goal?
ReplyDeleteI think the thing is Pastor Ed is driven by the Gospel there's no question about it, however I think it's the execution that's the issue. People at Gracepoint believe they are doing things the "right way" because of their metrics of Lordships decisions (pretty empty and stupid metric), salvation decisions (okay that's basically them taking course 101) and baptisms (all the testimonies sounds the same). They see everything as protecting that culture and environment that has been "successful". That's really where the issue lies. The notion of that it's about protecting "their church" means protecting "God's church" not protecting the integrity of the Gospel. And I think that blurs the line of following God and following church leaders.
ReplyDeletewoah, taking course 101 is NOT equated to salvation at GP. that's quite a claim and blatantly false if you mean it. i hope it was just venting in frustration, but let's be careful. this blog is titled "truth about gracepoint," and i think people out there are looking for the truth so let's try to be more precise. precision is important because otherwise it's slander/libel.
DeleteI've been noticing an influx of pro-GP comments. I'm guessing we have Gracepointers on here? From my time at GP, visiting these blogs was discouraged, but maybe that's changed.
DeleteI'm a current gracepoint-er, on the fence about the future. I lurk to hear the perspectives here. I think there's a lot of valid criticism discussed on this blog, and it's refreshing to hear those expressed. But I do think there are also some unfair assumptions about the intentions/"heart-state" of different individuals at GP, and some overgeneralizations that occur.
DeleteRe: reading these... I believe it's still discouraged, but anytime "the blogs" get mentioned (as they often still do at MBS, at least) I'm sure there are people who for various reasons, decide to take a look.
I think it's unhealthy that GP's culture can be pretty defensive to critique, I also understand WHY people feel defensive (and may be compelled to post rebuttals here). GP has faced/still faces a lot of criticism, ranging from appropriate concerns being voiced appropriately(the sort of thing currently on this blog) to straight up malicious false accusations and sabotage. Not sure if it's been discussed here, but recently someone went as far as to create fake "flyers" with really awful anti-LGBT messages, slap gracepoint's name on them as the "source", and distribute them around campus and post them online. Crazy stuff think that unfortunately adds to the "everyone is unfairly against us" vibe that makes people... sensitive.
Wow. I did not know this happened. That is disturbing.
DeleteThe flyers I see on reddit after a quick search are anti gay, anti transgender, and anti abortion. While I think Gracepoint did not create these flyers, I think the positions are right in line with their theology (and the theology of the greater Southern Baptist Convention denomination).
Yeah, the reddit ones are what I'm referring to. It was pretty upsetting.
DeleteGracepoint does fall pretty much in line with SBC on these issues (although interestingly, Pastor Ed recently expressed in a Q&A that he's been thinking more about transgender issues and is less conservative on those than one might expect). But yeah, there's a big leap between having a traditionalist approach on these topics and going about posting cruel/inflammatory fliers. These controversial political issues are definitely handled with kid gloves at GP, especially in outreach/college ministry.
It seems like it does take someone from the outside looking in… “To me, it is obvious that blindly following a human’s interpretation, even the most celebrated, can lead many to go an a tangent in their spiritual journeys.
DeleteWho is to say that this isn’t happening with Ed Kang just as he rebuked Becky Kim in the first place?
https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/mm6u24/why_it_sucks_to_be_a_woman_at_gracepoint/hrmrqdg/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3
I'm a younger staff so I don't know him personally. But from the multiple messages he's given, it seems pretty simple to me. I'd say he just wants the gospel to be preached. Especially as the church has been growing a lot more lately, he realizes it's going to get harder and harder to maintain closeness with so many people/churches spread out across the area, so he's said on multiple occasions that he wouldn't mind people just changing the Gracepoint name if that would help. I don't think he revels in his glory. He plainly admits his faults on a regular basis (ie. as a message point to illustrate the difficulty of living with sinners, he'll refer to times he's gotten angry at his wife and had to repent of that). His goal can be summed up in the Gracepoint vision "An Acts 2 church in every college town" (clarification: doesn't mean it has to be A2F or Gracepoint, but a church that models the Acts2 church)
ReplyDeleteThank you once again for participating in this forum. Have you done any research into spiritual abuse and undue influence, to be able to recognize if those techniques have been applied to you, and if what you do as a leader of new students is considered ethical by accepted standards?
DeleteI don't think the person needs to do any research on that. I think they are just really naive to the reality of Gracepoint and very far away from the real people in charge and really sipping the kool aid at this point. Like for instance, the real reason that Pastor Ed is allowing them to change the name is because of what happened in UChicago and UDub. UMD somehow has already been labelled a cult too because of a lot of their bad practices. And likewise wherever they go GP is associated with a lot of negative things. I don't know how they manage to believe that it's hard to maintain closeness. That doesn't even make sense.
DeleteAnother example is yes pastor Ed can admit fault for these small things but I have yet to see him admit fault like the deacons (Kevan Ho, Jeannie Lee, and Steve Suh) for a lot of the church's MAJOR mistakes. Pastor Ed in a way operates with so much lip service and spinning things some times to make you bite on his false humility. He has YET to truly address the issue at its core. WTF is a bullshit church "hackathon" supposed to do. As a so called "staff", I recommend you do a better with job with your homework with the church you're attending and supporting.
What happened in UChicago and UDub?
DeleteFrom what I was told, they basically got a lot of bad press the moment that the campus found out they were associated with GP, thanks to the blogs. I believe one person I think almost lost his job as an assistant track coach for UChicago (I might've heard wrong). I also heard a campus newspaper ran an investigation, only to comment that times have changed and it's fine. Bear in mind the UChicago team is run by the 2015 bros without any of the older staff members. The only guy remotely related to staff ironically are Stephen Sun (Tony Sun's son) and Noah Kang (Pastor Ed Kang's son). I did also hear UDub (ironically Stephen and Noah) were also on that team that a lot of people did research and found these blogs and all left. UMD same basically happened. My sibling heard from a lot of her friend's that UMD is pretty labelled as a cult which for me isn't surprising since a majority of the team is from UC Davis. If it implicates anything, people are very wary nowadays of this "korean church" that can be a flip of coin of the experience.
DeleteThanks for this information.
DeleteCan you elaborate on the faults that the deacons have admitted, and whether Ed and Kelly really refused to acknowledge that?
DeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
DeleteHm... amd you sure ask a lot of questions. But I think like in my conversations or my friend's conversations with Jeannie Lee, Kevan Ho, Rick Yi or Steve Suh (lesser extent, he told me that he does read these blogs and openly took responsibility for a lot of hurt and pain, although he wishes people would stop being keyboard warriors, airing their grievances online), they have many times admitted to their mistakes when confronted and do actively seek to adjust the change the culture. They have even apologized for the foolishness of some of the leaders. They will even in fact call those leaders out for those actions. It's not any mistake that they have transitioned a lot of people out from the church and continue to stay in touch with a lot of people that have left. From what I heard, Pastor Ed and Kelly just brush it off and say they will talk to the leader yet no changes really happens.
DeleteI guess where I'm unclear is what motivates them to support Ed and Kelly's abusive, guilt-based misinterpretation of Christianity rather than to chart their own path to Christ. Is it just complacency? Or do they feel powerless to affect real change, and instead try small changes as a compromise with their own spirituality / inner voice / conscience without upsetting the Kangs? Clearly there must be many good people in the organization who, unlike most wide-eyed college kids, actually understand what is going on.
Deletethis way.... you need to stop pinning Ed and Kelly as the only perpetrators of this type of practice of Christianity. Every single church is at fault for some thing. Pastor Ed and Kelly built policies in their eyes that would edify people to walk as sinlessly as possible. I think coming from other churches I can understand why they made those policies. Do I necessarily agree what the mistranslation of members and actions that have resulted from it? I don't agree with their actions. For example, the notorious dating one. I get it, your time to invest in other relationships is severely limited and there are churches I have been to where people are just there to hook up with girls. But let's be honest, WTF are the leaders thinking asking people to break up long distance relationships, that's just f'ed up and wrong. And another WTF sisters and brothers need to have an invisible barrier and people need to be policing each other's interactions (thankfully this varies by peer class, some peer classes like mine were just that extreme and pathetic, s/o to 2017 for being normal and having co-ed activities). I think the issue is people really understand what it means to walk in God's wisdom. It's honestly easier to be handed a bunch of rules and told to follow them. That probably points to why you get people making so many poor decisions and creating a abusive, guilt-based interpretation in their attempt to uphold those values and policies. If you really want, you can leave me your contact and I reach out to you privately if you want to have more in depth discussion about this.
Delete@amd There definitely are people at GP who are actively trying to push things in new/different directions, with varying degrees of success. I've heard encouraging anecdotes like certain leaders who make a point to frequently ask the lifegroup they lead for feedback, younger folks with new ideas actually getting the opportunity to try them out - especially the "next generation" of church kids, who seems to be getting a longer leash and more freedom (which is then good for everyone). But that said, there are still a lot of problems with rigidity to the point of absurdity, and the assumption that questioning how things are done = attacking the church.
DeleteI think it's easy to fall into a trap of attributing deliberate negative intentions or to assume everyone at GP acts/thinks/conspires collectively. There are group dynamics, but at the end of the day, still individual actors. I don't think Pastor Ed and Kelly are specifically the problem, either - I think it's a larger church culture issue.
Hi Anon at 1:18 PM. Top leaders are DIRECTLY responsible for the culture of the organization. There is NO WAY that culture happens, as if by accident. It is that way because someone made it so.
DeleteIf the earlier suggestion is that gp should get a pass because there are other churches that commit similar or worse types of abuse, I have to disagree. Many survivors are already working hard to bring those other churches to justice. This forum exists to help expose abuse at gp.
DeleteAnd although Ed and Kelly are not the only perpetrators of spiritual coercion at gp, only they hold any power to affect change: the “leaders” beneath them don't have the guts or wherewithal to stand up to them, lulled into believing that the end justifies the unbibilical means. Perhaps the truth makes the staff feel complicit, so they gradually become adept at justifying their own compliance, and find comfort in seeing others do same.
The abused become abusers after years of subtle coercion, not through their own original intent. They came to seek Christ, but got tricked into becoming Ed and Kelly’s instruments in growing the corporation under their control. Pretty clear whom to pin this on.
I want to reiterate that if the larger church culture is not changing from their abusive strategies and tactics to a more grace-filled community, the responsibility lies mainly on and squarely with the top leaders. Even if Ed and Kelly were new hires who joined Gracepoint five years ago and just found themselves in this sort of culture, it would STILL be their responsibility to change the legalistic culture. It does NOT lie with congregants. Anyone who tried to change the culture while I was going were socially punished and shamed.
DeleteHi John.How did Gracepoint socially punish and shame those who tried to change its culture?
DeleteBy questioning their salvation. By saying they only wanted to get married and didn't love God at all. By creating a culture where your peers police your behavior and report you to your leaders if you do something like date, etc.
DeletePastor Ed and Kelly made sure you knew they were successful as lawyer and programmer, but gave it all up to be ministers. They made sure you knew they weren't losers in life, but want you to emulate them. Nothing wrong with them giving things up, except the performance mentality carries over from being lawyer and programmer. Instead of making partner or founding a start-up, their life goal is Gracepoint. Their ministry from an operation point of view is model of efficiency. Large public schools with a lot of Asians students who are already Christian needing to find a new church on campus. Moreover, the students are young, wide-eyed, first time away from home and need community and friendship... To this population, Gracepoint offers its blend of Asian conservatism, instant friendship, supportive community. Sometimes I wonder if these kids are saved by the Gospel or just want to join the community. If the community/friendship/activities/sense of belonging/music/sense of purpose weren't this attractive, would they be saved? For a while, Pastor Ed would have people rewrite their salvation testimonies before baptism, because most people wrote at great length about their Gracepoint experience, but very little or none about their understanding of God. This is why when people leave, it's almost always with an emotional toll. Gracepoint had been 99% of their lives for N number of years and now no more. Sometimes I wonder would it make a difference if Gracepoint was preaching Catholicism, Mormonism, Arianism (oops) versus the prove-your-self worthy Protestantism catering to Asian American from suburbia.
ReplyDeleteHi John, I am a undergraduate student who joined one of the gracepoint ministry many years ago. I recently heard that all the staffs need to install some sort of application on their laptop and their mobile devices to track and record everything( blog or youtube) they have viewed in the past month and then forward this information to their leader. and the leader need to do the same thing and forward their information to their top leaders so on and so far. I just wondering that is this a common practice back to Berkland time? Or is it invented by Ed? Its really terrifying since I am already told that I need to move out next year just because one of my roommate isn't part of church. If all the staff need to stay only with the staff and no inappropriate information can be accessed by the church member then it's highly likely to become the next people's temple.
ReplyDeleteIt sounds like classic Berkland. Is this happening at Gracepoint Berkeley?
DeleteThere used to be a course called Course 201 where you had to keep track of what you did every day, in the format of a schedule, and turn it in as part of the course. Churches do all kinds of crazy controlling shit in the name of "accountability." If you say no, they start shaming you about what you have to hide.
DeleteFormer member here, few years removed. When we were there, the program that was installed was Covenant Eyes (CE). It was pretty much an unspoken rule that if you were a member of GP, then you had to have CE installed. The purpose of CE is to have accountability in regards to fighting pornography addiction. It's a good company and good software to help those struggling with porn have accountability in regards to not being addicted to it. However, and even the company itself says so (I can't find a specific quote, but this is based on what I remember reading when I was viewing the website), the person keeping you accountable should be someone you trust and are willing to have hard conversations with about your porn addiction.
DeleteMy issue was the continued guilt trip about NOT having CE installed. So what if I didn't want my browsing to be tracked, I deserve privacy don't I? And also, you always kept changing mentors and so your accountability partner was almost always changed on an annual basis. So, what if I didn't want to change my accountability partner? So the constant tension of having to install CE and feeling FEARFUL (instead of vulnerable, which is completely different from fearful) that if you didn't install CE you'd be labeled a heretic or always changing your accountability partner were one of many things that made me leave.
Just my two cents.
The software is called Covenant Eyes and it's only used as means for you to have an accountability partner to make sure you aren't on porn sites or doing random stuff like in one of my peers case getting distracted on YouTube. I'm sure from an outside point of view it does sound a little messed up and very big brother-ish but it's only intended for your leader (in some cases most people don't even have their leader checking so not sure where that notion came from) and accountability partner (usually only one or two peers). In my cases, I chose to reject my peers suggestions since I knew they would question me watching Game of Thrones. And surprisingly a number of older brothers (who are currently now staff) backed me that it was my choice when they tried to force me into it. This is the case with Berkeley/Alameda. Not sure what other wild stuff other church plants do these days.
DeleteNo not at Berkeley one. And from what I hard it's like an application that can record and submit everything automatically to their leaders. In their word it is to prevent you from seeing something inappropriate.
Deletebro, CE is optional. if you don't want it you don't have to get it. they require it for staff though since they're in leadership and have higher standard for leaders. if you don't want it, it's simple -- don't sign up to be staff.
DeleteWhen I was at Gracepoint Berkeley a few years ago we were told to use a program called Covenant Eyes which sent a notification to your accountability partner (usually your leader) every time you accessed something the program thought was inappropriate.I think it also just sent a summary of your general activity at given intervals and did some blocking and filtering of your internet searches. I'm not sure if that's the same thing "Unknown Stranger" is talking about but it sounds similar. If it is the same, it's been in use for several years. For most of my time there, I had only heard of other people using it by their choice because of some specific struggles they had. I wasn't required to use it until my last year as staff there when it became considered (at least by my leader) as a general best practiced to be monitored in that way whether you were struggling or not. I'm not sure if it became a church-wide thing for it to be required for everyone since I left shortly after.
ReplyDeleteHey John, I do appreciate this blog as this seems to be the only real active blog. For some background, I have a long history with BBC/Gracepoint Church. I started attending back in 1994 when I was in the 3rd/4th Grade when my mom was invited to the Korean Department Service. I essentially grew up with Song Ae JDSN in Children's Department and continued to Youth Group with John Suh JDSN, which split into Junior/High School Department (Richard Lee/Henry Shim/Ben Koo) and then went down to UCLA and attended BBC LA (Pastor Daniel Im) until I graduated and served in the Navy for 5 years. During my time in the military in San Diego, I was affiliated with the San Diego church (Pastor Phillip Kim) that was affiliated with BBC LA/Irvine church. I personally knew most if not all the people that have been listed here on this blog.
ReplyDeleteTo say the least, I was indoctrinated in the ways of Berkland growing up in the Bay Area. We probably know a lot of the same people. Everything that is being written is very accurate and I still know people that still attend various Gracepoints; however, haven't really kept in touch with most of them. I now attend a very biblical church in Los Angeles and there are people at this church that have come from Gracepoint or know people that have come from Gracepoint. I grew up knowing most of the pastors since everyone essentially began at BBC Berkeley. Most of my youth staff growing up were from the Berkley Class of 1995.
I have to say that I believe most people at Gracepoint are believers, as I was saved and baptized at BBC during my youth days; however, I would definitely say that there are very toxic unbiblical practices that are still very prevalent in the church. I am also thankful for the fact that my wife attended BBC Berkeley starting her junior year and came down to UCLA for her masters work. If I weren't at BBC LA then I probably wouldn't have met her. There are so many facets and issues that I can go into; but want to thank you for continuing the conversation as people do need to be aware of the drawbacks of BBC/Gracepoint.
I am part of a college/grad student ministry at UCLA and have seen how vibrant Gracepoint is at UCLA. They have it down to a science for college ministry, which is why they are so successful. I meet students every so often that are always conflicted as to committing to Gracepoint as the church is very dynamic and the lure of attending such a radically different church has its appeal. By no means is there a perfect church as every church has weaknesses. Reading about current students/staff that are going through the same issues I saw growing up in the church is sad as I know the feeling of guilt and conflict of whether to stay or leave the church. A lot of the people that I used to know have left Gracepoint as well including some core leadership and staff, which surprised me when I found out.
It was very difficult for us to leave the church as I grew up in BBC/Gracepoint from my earliest days. There were some really awesome moments, great people and period of great spiritual growth, but thankful now that I have found a biblical church in Los Angeles.
Thanks Dan.
DeleteThe barrier to joining GP as a non-college student is that in order to be put into a life group (or home group, or small group - what it's called changes from time to time) you must be serving in a ministry, because meetings and sharings are mainly done together in groups that serve together. But in order to serve, you must be a member of the church. So people who did not experience GP in college are stuck in an uncomfortable situation where if they want to really get to know the church and have community, they must first become a member (which most people would be reluctant to do if they just moved into the area and are checking out different churches.)
ReplyDeleteThis is probably something that GP will really need to figure out if they truly want to become inclusive and not always target only (arguably very susceptible, impressionable, and relatively naive and obedient because of their young age and lack of exposure to the outside world) college students.
Why does one need to join a life / home / small group in order to join gp?
ReplyDeleteYou misunderstood, I'm saying you need to become an official member of gp to be put into a small group. Most people would not be comfortable making that sort of commitment (becoming a member) if they are new so outsiders are dissuaded from checking out GP/staying.
DeleteGot you, but why can't one just attend gp without joining small group? Until they get to know the church.
ReplyDeleteYou CAN do that, but you can't really "get to know the church" if you're not part of a smaller group of people and getting to know how stuff works. You'd just be floating around and not get a lot of info.
DeleteNo one has mentioned this yet but they have been also been very deceptive in their newer models in their attempts to “work” with the high schools in the Bay Area. They have been under the name AYM aka Area Youth Ministry and have been extremely aggressive to a point of really shady in getting involved in the high school Christian clubs on their campus. They never once mention that they are associated with Gracepoint and attempt to write off Gracepoint’s other groups as their partners (https://www.areayouth.org/about-aym). I’m sure their intentions are in the right place to help but I think it’s proving to be preying on clueless high school students and ramming their version of the Gospel down their throats and doing their college strategy from a high school standpoint.
ReplyDeleteWere you directly involved in this yourself? I would caution you against using strong words like "extremely aggressive to a point of really shady" if you are making your observation merely based off of their social media advertising and website, and have never seen them actually work.
DeleteI for one don't know the people who started AYM, but am friends with people who know the founders. Based off of what I could tell, they are really working hard not to be associated with GP. The org is not even meant to be a part of GP (which is why they don't mention it) and the founders were trying to start something they hoped could be parachurch. I don't know how it's doing nowadays, but as someone who is not a GP-supporter per se, I really don't think it's necessary to look at AYM critically just because its founders are GP members.
Unfortunately, I actually am college friends with probably the entire team of AYM. I heard it was a really random attempt to keep one of the 2017 bros at GP instead of going back to San Diego to his home church. And it was a friend of mine at one of the local high school Christian club that said that they extremely aggressive that it felt really shady.
DeleteI mean they can tell you all they want but they still impart Gracepoint-isms wherever they are if you pay extremely close attention to their actions. And they want to offer mentorship to someone that they barely even see. Are they too pathetic to work with the local churches? Oh wait, they pissed off a large portion of the members in those congregations in college and many parents know about Gracepoint as some Korean authoritarian dictatorship church that provides match making services. And you want to say they want to start parachurch. Most of the youth kids have homes churches they attend consistently every week.
And also how much do they really know about the youth down in South Bay. Sorry just because one or two of people on their team is from the area (yes one of them went to my high school) doesn't mean they know what's really going on down in South Bay. They are in their Gracepoint eutopia where everyone drives a Honda Odyssey so so far from the rest of reality. Their arrogance deludes them from recognizing how alienating they are. Oh yeah, and if they want to tell you they care about mental health of the youth, tell them that's bullshit. Gracepoint is joke when it comes to mental health. Actually they've caused a lot of mental health pressure to people. To me AYM is some attempt to extend their tentacles to increase their pipeline of their conquests of college ministry. Maybe the people on the team do care about the youth but they are so out of context they don't know how better in ways they can help.
And for one, if you want more context, a number of people moved back under Klesis at UC Berkeley this past year. All the founding members are still actively involved with GP and do you not notice how I say they moved back under Klesis. It implies the church still controls where they can go and what they do. How can you say they working hard to not be associated when all their teaching is still from the great Pastor Ed Kang?
I'm sorry to hear all that, that does sound sad unfortunate. (Although how does one keep someone from leaving by starting a ministry?? Did the person have a heart for highschoolers and GP promised them they could achieve that without going home??)
DeleteI was merely trying to keep a fair perspective as your first comment sounded like it was jumping to conclusions. As with a lot of ministries GP starts, I guess at the end of the day, if they truly wanted to achieve a lot of things they claim they want to achieve (like serving highschoolers whether they end up joining GP or not) they need to open their nonprofits up to the public and not keep it all within the church. Like, maybe open up applications to anyone outside of GP and interview them to become staff? I guess the problem of that would be that those people would expect to be paid (as most nonprofit orgs hire people) while I imagine GP people mostly work for free like "volunteer" work.
All good! I still have really close relationships with a lot of people there so I usually come from the perspective of having checked my sources.
DeleteAnd when was the last time Gracepoint made a hire outside of the church? Never. They like everyone homegrown including marriages. It's a means to protect their legalistic culture and continue breeding loyal supporters to it.
When was the last time they really talked about the cultural commission? In their arrogance, they look down on the Jeremy Lin's, Lecrae's, Stephen Curry's because they aren't evangelizing or spreading the gospel. Just because Lecrae raps about something a little more secular, people in GP start judging him as a non-Christian like some pharisees who have nothing else better to do but to follow the edicts of Pastor Ed Kang.
I have never seen Gracepoint work with another church, it's almost like they believe they are doing things the right or better way and convincing their sheep to sip that kool-aid. I remember back in college they looked down on Unity in Christ and NAOS so much.
People may love God in that church, but they sure do not know how to be part of this world and love others as Christ has commanded us. Many people are viewed as some conversion project to them. So to me no matter what, they can talk about their breaking changes, their plans and visions but their DNA will always prevent them from doing so. If anything I personally believe the issue is more about their heart and what they are being taught. There's no humility present.
Do the people you have close relationships with in GP know you feel this way? Do they understand or share some sentiments? If not, how did you manage to stay close? What would you say the nature of the "close" relationships are like? I ask because I struggled with this after leaving. We still are definitely friends, but I realized they only look excited when they talk about ministry and GP people/events, and since I'm not in the loop of what's going on anymore, we don't seem to have much in common and I can't call them "close".
DeleteHow did you maintain your relationship with GP people when you have already left? Are they your leaders, peers, or underclassmen?
DeleteHow I felt about Gracepoint was like no big secret that I’m sure it got leaked to even Element and to other church plants, even some of the upperclassmen who are now staff recently joked that they all knew I wouldn’t stay post grad in the Korean authoritarian environment. And just to clarify, I stayed around all 4 years of college because I felt there was so much to learn and observe from Gracepoint whether it be good or bad things. I think if anything me disagreeing with their policies helped me solidify and understand what is truly biblical better for myself. I am also thankful for so many of the relationships that I’ve built and that fact that I was able to invite so many people into this community that continue to faithfully serve at Gracepoint. I appreciate that some of my peers still consider me as part of their Gracepoint family.
DeleteI communicated those disagreements that with my peers during my junior/senior year and obviously had a relational strain that by the grace of God was able to work out before I graduated. There is definitely awkwardness with certain peers that still exist, but it is what it is.
I think with the ones I’m close with I still continue to remain vulnerable and intentional during our very limited time that we are able to catch up. I think i’m also fortunate that at least a good number of my peers I grew up with since preschool (yup you read that right)/elementary school/middle school/high school so there’s a lot of history with them aka the relationship has been built up for more than a decade now. I would some of them I know them way better than whatever is presented before the leaders in the church. Some of my peers do email/text from time to time with life updates. I think ‘close’ to me isn’t always about volume of interactions. I think it’s the fact that regardless of church we are still supporting and praying for each other as brother’s in Christ chasing after the same goal of loving God and loving others. And no, many of them are quite interested in talking and hearing about non-GP things. I think there was one time we just had a long discussion about how the church I’m currently attending does ministry. And a lot of my recent conversations with them, I think we barely touched on their ministries and more focused with a lot of concerns with career and dating. I think it takes time to challenge a lot of their default mindset and to show them that regardless of church, it’s really not an excuse to continue honoring the relationships that you’ve built in college with them. With underclassmen/upperclassmen/leaders, it’s the same thing as my peers.
daaamn bro, i know the aym staff. don't talk about them like that. they're just trying to boost the faith of high school christian kids struggling with their faith. wow, way to put a sinister twist on it.
DeleteWanted to follow up on these comments with AYM's goal of becoming something like a parachurch at first (which I agree with). I do believe the intent of AYM was to serve HS students However, in my opinion, with their recent retreats in collaboration with InterHigh and Element, as well as the creation of AYM College, it seems that AYM is just becoming another one of GP's many fellowships (A2F, Koin, Klesis, etc.). To me, this is concerning since it means that GP's influence is extending beyond college students and seeping into high school students.
Delete@Smile thanks for the follow-up. In my opinion it was ALWAYS clear from the get go it was just another pipeline. Their entire strategy was always sketch with how they forced their way into my high school. If they wanted to do it right, why are they manipulating to people to stick around in GP rather than going back to their home churches that need them? Oh wait, GP rather subtly flex that they are better than those poorly supported ethnic churches and continue to push their narrative that they are better and retain as many people as they start grooming the high schoolers for their ministry. Disgusting abuse of the Gospel.
DeleteI found a link to an interview that the Collegiate Collective did with Gracepoint. From what I've heard, Gracepoint also participates in conferences here and they do talks. Churches in other states have been inspired to plant churches in the same way because of the things they have shared. I feel split because the way they talk in the interview sounds practical and strategic on one hand and very manipulative on the other. They're referring to people as batches and trying to get them to stay according to the interview. But still, couldn't you say they are still doing good for the sake of the gospel and shouldn't you rejoice that the gospel is preached, regardless of whether it is done for selfish motives? (Philippians 1:18)
ReplyDeletehttp://collegiatecollective.com/gracepoint-urban-collegiate-churches/#.XSnt44GRUwA
While you are correct in that we SHOULD rejoice that the gospel is still being preached, at the same time is it an actual long term conversion or a temporary one filled with fear? While I was at GP for many years, I never felt free to be a Christian in that context until I finally left and found another church. There I felt that I was actually serving God, rather than serving the church. And there are so many that I know that have left ever more bitter or vowing to never give Christianity a chance. So for every one person that had a long term conversion for life, there are at least ten more that have been driven away. So is it really proper to say that they are still doing good for the sake of the gospel or has it become so corrupted by conceit and statistics?
DeleteHow did you confirm more people have been driven away than people staying in GP? The numbers of people are increasing each year in GP, especially in SoCal. Also they are collaborating with other churches. Shouldn't it be a good sign for us to see they are improving GP?
DeleteI think you really underestimate the church enormously. It feels like Gracepoint does these things for an ego trip. They only do it to promote their brand and how they decidedly were the conquerors and liberators of a broken sinful campus. Gracpeoint can really care less about how other fellowships operate. Have you not how much they look down upon all the college ministries and the parachurches and their snark toward the Unity in Christ and intercampus fellowship meetings. They spend more time kissing their own asses counting those salvation decisions through their “genius” course 101, how many people they’ve pressured and coerced into Lordship decisions, and how many template baptism testimonies they have. These “leaders” are such pharisaical tools that they’ve forgotten what the Gospel is really about and prefer to be judging people because of certain lifestyles.
DeleteLet me also be fair to them, how they do ministry is very strategic and very well thought out. There is a lot that can be learned from how they do things, however, when you don’t teach wisdom to your congregation, then it seems manipulative.
And second, I want to add on, are they really bringing people to Christ? A lot of people’s faiths are shallow and is all based on the church. You take Gracepoint out of their life, they pretty much fall away completely. And like the previous person said too, who are they serving, Gracepoint or God?
To the most recent Anon, I agree with everything you said, but I'd also like to point out that in most churches, most people's faiths are shallow. And even this statement is shallow because I'm making a judgment completely at face value. Only God knows what is in the center of an individual's heart.
Delete"Take Gracepoint out of their life, they pretty much fall away completely"
That is the case for MOST people in any church. The Church is meant to be the body of Christ and it is difficult to claim to be part of the body while not in community. As a church we are to encourage each other and fellowship and point each other to God. Anyone without that kind of community will have a hard time in their faith. (Although yes, it should NEVER be all that your faith is made of) Though I completely get what you are saying, just wanted to caution you not to go too extreme with the particular things you are criticizing.
adding onto what the most recent anon said -- you guys know that people leave church all the time feeling bitter and vowing never to give christianity a chance? it's not unique to gracepoint. sadly it happens everywhere.
DeleteNo, I have not known much about it. But I felt uncomfortable during retreat time and I couldn't really say why but it should be something wrong.
ReplyDeleteCould you give me more details about it ? How often did they judge people outside of GP?
Long story short, all the time. If it wasn't part of GP, it was basically considered unBiblical.
DeleteGP people come in all stripes. the younger ones who haven't experienced life as much might be judgmental (like sophomores). the older ones who've experienced life a bit and are wiser tend to be more gracious towards outsiders and other churches.
Delete"if it wasn't part of GP, it was basically considered unBiblical" - not really. doesn't make sense why they'd work with other churches and orgs if that was the case.
In my experience, it's actually been the exact opposite. Younger people who haven't been in GP as long tend to question GP's way of doing things a lot more and have friends outside of GP. By the time you are a senior, (also partly because a lot of the people who aren't super sure about GP have left by then) much fewer people will have close friends outside of GP let alone put themselves in instances where they could make friends outside of GP because you get busier and busier making friends with lowerclassmen and postgrads. And what people have been saying here about GP's stance on Unity in Christ is undeniably true. GP will pick their UiC reps and then have meetings with their reps to tell them exactly how to act or think and basically consider most of what UiC does not worth investing time in. I wasn't a UiC rep myself but my leader was, and the way they talked about UiC and other churches was pretty condescending. Basically GP thinks UiC needs GP, but GP doesn't need UiC, so they support the effort financially but it's more of a charity thing than it is really caring about cooperation with the other churches on campus.
DeleteAnyone want to talk about Josh Harris denouncing his faith? Wonder how Gracepoint is going to justify their dating methodologies since a lot of their dating reader was based on "I Kissed Dating Goodbye". I guess staff will be scrambling to find something that can justify their controlling ways of dating.
ReplyDeleteI don't see his recent news as a denouncing of his faith. My opinion is that he is going through a deconstructing. Dare I call it refinement by fire?
DeletePurity culture is harmful and doesn't work. I hope that the church repents of this harmful practice.
@John good luck. Just got word from a staff member Gracepoint is removing his texts from their dating reader but keeping Josh Harris' stance.
DeleteThere is an actual dating reader?
DeleteThe dating reader is given to you when you are ready to date. Like C101/SK1 for dating
DeleteWho decides when you are ready to date? Does one simply declare that they are ready, and request the dating reader?
DeleteMostly yourself. GP's answer is ultimately yourself. Sometimes when you are ready you can be asked to wait 6 months, a year, etc. Various reasons can exist here by case. The one I was met with was to keep the class momentum going -- as in there was growth/maturing happening and dating would detract from that, so wait a year.
DeleteYep, just ask your leader for the dating reader. It's an odd dilemma to let your peers know if you have the reader.
And like the previous poster said, GP's way of handling people like Joshua Harris is to remove content but keep the stance. GP will simply move on and contrary to the OP, I don't think it's that difficult to justify and find another but similar source. I'm guessing they did the same thing with Bill Hybels, as they did with Steve Fee.
And everyone is ok with someone overseeing your decision to date? Is everyone that obedient by that point? What happens if you just start dating without notifying the authorities?
Delete@amd: when I was a sophomore, I was dating someone back in my home city. I didn't tell my gp leaders because I was scared but my family and friends knew about my relationship. A year after we broke up - I brought it up with my small group leader to tell her about things I'd learned though the experience. She immediately reported this to the pastor's wife. My peers who had known were immediately rebuked for not ratting me out. They were told to apologize to me for not being my keeper and not telling on me. I was rebuked and asked to write a repentance letter for sinning against my leader. Shortly after that, I left GP.
DeleteIt's hard to say for everyone, but pretty much, yes. The thought here is that you are relationally close with your leader. Why wouldn't you open up and tell your leader?
DeleteYou can't date without leaders knowing once you become a regular. If you date as an undergrad, sure, you might be asked to leave. But once you're a core senior, church member, staff member, etc. that just doesn't happen. If you do, you're in for a talk and possibly rebuke.
Ah, I sort of take back what I said about readiness or at least want to add a little clarification. Since in GP you aren't considered ready as an undergrad, especially as a freshmen or sophomore.
DeleteI meant readiness with the assumption you've made it past that stage, you've made it through what they've been telling you to wait for, and you're finally ready. Then at that point, it's mostly your call.
https://time.com/5639876/joshua-harris-christian-divorce-apology/
DeleteSeems like Joshua Harris says he isn't Christian anymore.
I'm confused how you can "control" when you date. You need another person to date WITH to actually date. When you tell your leader you want to date, is that with a specific person in mind? Or do the two people go to the leader together for permission? Or is it that once you're given the "permission" to date you're advertised somewhere as "available and single"?
Delete@Anonymous (August 1, 2019 at 9:19 PM) I am really sorry to hear that. It's practices like your experience that let me away from GP.
Delete@Anonymous (AnonymousAugust 3, 2019 at 10:12 AM) I don't fully get your first question, but even outside GP, you'd need another person to date. Once you reach senior or up status, you are free to ask another person to date. Typically, you tell your leader who you want to date, then ask over the phone. You are not advertised, lol. If you are older and they want to set you up, maybe. That's also true outside GP, being set up. The older gen of Berkland might have faced the toxic matchmaking culture.
What are the contents of the dating reader? Who wrote it?
DeleteMy post was lost or wasn't approved, but called it :)
ReplyDeleteI don't recall unapproving or deleting any comment related to this. I approve almost all comments, even the ones supporting Gracepoint.
DeleteTo those on the fence on GP, I don't think listening to people's opinions will help you make a decision regardless of whether they are proGP or antiGP. Maybe it can give perspective but since their stories are not yours, it's different.
ReplyDeleteYou ultimately need to evaluate your faith for yourself, and look at how your relationships and your friends and your lifestyle look like. Do you feel at peace? Do you feel safe? Does your environment promote both your PHYSICAL, MENTAL, and SPIRITUAL health? Critically look at what your interactions with others are centered around and how that influences your faith and their faith. Are you growing? What do you consider "growing"? What do you think is encouraging or hindering the growing?
God doesn't call us to seek where we are COMFORTABLE, in fact, he promises us much strife as followers of Christ. But he does promise his PEACE, and the church's role is to provide a spiritual home where you can experience that peace amidst the craziness and brokenness of the world. If you are uncertain of how you feel or are having doubts, I strongly encourage you to read the Bible IN CONTEXT and ask the Spirit to guide your heart. Another helpful link is GotQuestions' definitions of spiritual abuse and spiritual manipulation: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.gotquestions.org/amp/spiritual-abuse.html
If some stuff feels relatable, perhaps you should find someone to consult outside of GP (because I doubt a leader in GP would ever say they are a negative influence to you). If you think this doesn't apply to you, you can know that some people's bad experiences with GP don't necessarily apply to you and have come out of the experience more aware of what symptoms of an unhealthy spiritual climate are so that perhaps you can help others. The decision to leave a church doesn't have to be an "attack" on the church as much as a decision to simply find somewhere that is better for your personal wellbeing.
Evaluate what you think your life is like and hopefully the conclusion brings you to peace. It may be staying in GP, leaving GP, leaving for a season to see the outside world then come back, who knows.
Thank you so much for continuing this website! I'm glad to have this as a resource to help clarify/sort through some thoughts I've been having about GP. I recently left their church in Austin, and to be honest there are so many things I loved and will cherish from my time there, but going through the posts on your site has been a comforting reminder that there truly were aspects of the culture at GP that distorted the gospel and undermined our personal relationship with Christ!
ReplyDeleteThank you for sharing that! How did you come to the decision to leave? Were you able to find a new place of worship that you feel is closer to how Christianity is meant to be practiced?
DeleteWow, I spent the past 3 hours catching up on this thread as well as looking up all the current leadership (https://www.gracepointonline.org/our-team) . Its shocking to see so many familiar (while a little older) face who are still so loyal to BBC/GP. As a long time lurker, an old school BBCer from the Alcatraz/Willard days, the effects of my time at Berkland still affects me to this day. I don't have anything specific to add to the conversation but its amazing to see that so many others are still feeling the after effects from an abusive culture. I still believe that the efforts are well intended with the very real potential for serious psychological damage. One thing that came out of my time at Berkland was clearly the way that I view relationships with the opposite sex.
ReplyDeleteWhile I'm not sure if I consider this forum true or meaningful catharsis, its definitely a weird sensation to re-live the distant past.
Spiritual trauma has a lasting impact for sure.
DeleteBack in the early 2000s, there were so many "red-flags" at BBCSV and I made such a poor decision by overstaying my time over there. By reading these stories in regards to BBC disintegration over the years, it further cemented my suspicion of these large gatherings where stealthy people could utilize other people's positions in the church to control/bully/sheep-tize/manipulate/fill-in-the-blank whomever they could get their hands on. I found an opportunity to pull away from that crazy mess shortly after you and Loan went LA bound. I dealt with my own trauma for over a long period of time afterward. For years, I had to be cautious with Christian extroverts and tried to "smell" them out with suspicion.
Delete.
DeleteHi Ed, I'm glad you found others stories helpful. I never attended BBCSV but I'm glad you were able to get away.
DeleteHi all, I'm a current undergrad and a member of one of Gracepoint's groups. Although I haven't experienced anything "bad" yet, upon reading all these comments I'm definitely starting to ask some questions. But before I come to any conclusions, I want to experience it first hand.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I don't really know what approach I should take in order to find the answers I seek. For those who have had a negative experience, what recommendations would you give someone like me?
Hi! I'm going to assume you're Christian with this response. (if you're not, I would still recommend this but you might feel different about it).
Delete1. Read the Bible. Not DT, not other verses everyone at the fellowship has been focusing on, but really read it for yourself and start to form your opinions on where you stand doctrinally. Commentaries can help too. The point is to try and distance yourself from the applications GP makes from each verse and understand the greater context the verses have as God's Word. This isn't because GP's interpretations are wrong (I don't think they usually were), but because their APPLICATIONS are often "one size fits all", which is why so many people from GP feel like they're expected to live a certain way even though no one has ever outright given them a list of rules to follow. Certain verses at GP are referenced so often in a certain context that it becomes really hard to see them in a different light. You want God's Words to speak for themself, not through the GP filter. For example, just because Jesus says (in Matthew 10:34-39) that the gospel will put you at odds with your family DOES NOT always mean blood family is less important than church family. It DOES mean there might be times when you'll be at odds with even the most closest people in your life because you have chosen to follow Jesus. Therefore just because Jesus says this doesn't mean you shouldn't go home for the weekend because it means you have to miss friday night or go to your home church.
2. As you read the Bible you should also be praying. Not just that God will tell you what to do (because he doesn't always), but that (I'm assuming) you want to follow him wherever he takes you, even if it's not what you want. Acknowledge there will be times God tells you things you don't like. Like James 1:5-8 says, God won't give his wisdom to those who actually don't want it/aren't sure if they want it. Talk to him personally: maybe you're concerned, maybe you're scared, maybe you're confused. Tell him all of that because He only wants the best for you, and examine your own heart whether you're open to whatever he tells you. Ask him if there's anything you're missing, and if so, that he would reveal those things to you in his perfect timing.
3. This is a side note, but I notice a lot of people say "I haven't noticed anything myself yet" or "I want to see things for myself" and while I understand the sentiment, that sort of approach isn't foolproof because in my case, I actually didn't see a lot of things I disagreed with or found abusive until AFTER I left. (After I left, I saw how things were like for my friends still in GP and my eyes were opened to how I had been treated myself, but I just hadn't realized) I think a lot of it was because of lack of perspective. I didn't know how else a good church could be run, so I assumed like many others this was the best church there is. That's why I think the best way is to ask God and read his Word, not base your decisions purely on what you perceive. You may even experience scales coming off your eyes.
Delete4. I wish someone had told me this before, but you can also try reaching out to pastors at different churches in the area. I'd recommend those of churches that are also involved with college ministry as they'll likely have more time for you and have experience talking to people your age. If there's concerns or questions you find unsatisfactory from your leaders, try asking the pastors. There's no need to mention the GP name, you can just talk about your situation. If they are a fair person, (I've found most of them to be extraordinary and unbiased when speaking to students) they might help you decide if your concerns are valid or exaggerated. I've had pretty cool random coffee chats because most pastors are willing to spare their time even if you aren't part of their immediate flock.
5. Something to be more level-headed might be to have healthy relationships outside of GP, especially Christian friends. It might be harder if you're an upperclassman, but if you don't know any through classes you can also meet them through interfellowship clubs. It can be helpful especially if you ever decide to leave, since as you can tell from what people have said, leaving is a VERY painful process. Lots of broken hearts. And having friends from outside the church but within the faith can make a HUGE difference.
I know it can be easy to read this and assume I want everyone to leave GP, but that isn't true. I genuinely think God puts people in places for a reason, and those reasons are often beyond their understanding, let alone my understanding. So who am I to judge? Even though I'm not part of GP anymore, I can still say it was definitely a growing experience and God intentionally led me there.
I do know that being stuck between leaving or staying, or not knowing what's true, is very stressful and frustrating. I have more peers who went through that than not, and the experience can be depressing if it goes on for a long time. So if this is ever what you're experiencing, my heart goes out to you and I wish you the best. Feel free to email me @ eirene1427 (gmail) if you ever want to talk privately.
*sorry typo, it's ierene1427
Deletehi John! a good news is that I have told the story about gracepoint and shared this blog to students at our group and people are gradually realizing the weird pressure and start to leaving. One thing I am still curious is the money structure inside gracepoint. Do you have any idea how gracepoint is running as an organization？How is the cashflow looks like running from the bottom to the top(tithe) and from the top to the bottom? Is GP registered as NGO or NPO? If so, any audit report can be find? And also who offered the fellowship money? solely from the leader who is in charge of the group or is from GP church? In what scope? I am curious because I recently had a conversation with my new leader (yearly leadership rearrange as GP's tradition) regarding some question of mine, and when I asked him about DT( what we gonna read after acts and who wrote DT), he can't give me an exact answer( his answer is like "no body knows" and " the pastors, I don't know"). This conversation really excites me since I already had conversation with some staffs and the can't tell the structure of GP even outside of their group. Considering leader is the highest level of staff that I can reach so far and they still don't know who wrote DT( meaning they don't know the structure of GP as an org), I am now really really curious about GP's financial situation and the tithe situation. Please reply if you know any thing, Thx!
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry if this offends you, unknown stranger, but I'm moderately concerned by your comment because you sound a little too excited about what you're dealing with... (I think I expected more fear or sadness) I don't know if you're still in GP or not, but if you are (and convinced others to leave without leaving yourself) I think it might be important for you to reflect what you're being motivated by right now. Curiosity isn't a bad thing, but what exactly do you plan to do with the answers you find (if you find them)? Are they God-honoring or self-serving?
DeleteI think my last comment got lost, but I'll say it again. I feel moderately concerned by your comment because it sounds a little bit too excited (considering the heavy topic, I would have expected more concern or anger or sadness). Also, it sounds like you tried to convince others to leave but haven't left yourself... I’d strongly recommend you reflect where your curiosity is leading you. Curiosity isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but what are your motives? Are they God-fearing or are they self-serving?
DeleteAs for the answers to your actual questions, if you really want to know I’m sure the pastors are relatively approachable, or you could ask during their typical QnAs during student retreats. Like a previous comment said, church finances are pretty transparent to members as well, if that is what you intend to do. I don’t know for sure because I didn’t become a member to see for myself. I remember when I was a college student someone asked Pastor Ed his income during a QnA session and he said he and Kelly earn a combined total of 90k. (This was quite a while ago tho, might not be the case anymore.)
As much as I believe GP has its issues in regards to discipleship and how it treats/views college students, based off of what I’ve seen in terms of finances they don’t do anything fishy and I hope you won’t try too hard to find fault where there isn’t. I think the majority of members are genuinely doing what they think is best to serve God in a self-sacrificial manner, it’s just that despite their good motives, sometimes they’re blinded from the truth of what they’re doing.
What is DT? Discipleship Training?
DeleteDT = Devotional Time. Basically a daily Bible reading/journaling of Bible passages that has a passage and some questions to help guide you through processing/reading the passage.
DeleteThe Korean church equivalent of QT
Delete@anonymous: Your concern and recommendation are appreciated, as is your balanced approach. But unknown stranger is entitled to his own emotions and does not need to feel sad or angry just because someone thinks he should. He may be elated about breaking free of GP’s grip after years wasted serving its growth and control agenda instead of serving God or the needy. Whatever the case, no one can dictate what he should feel.
DeleteNor is he accountable to anyone here, or is under any obligation to be God-fearing: none of us can dictate his relationship with God or himself. Nothing wrong with being self-serving as long as you are not harming others. And way better than submitting yourself to false authority and playing into the system that is toxic and unchristian beneath a cloak of misapplied scripture. It’s admirable enough that he has found courage to think for himself and to do something about it.
Best of luck to you, unknown stranger. I hope you manage to find happiness at a new spiritual home and help your friends do same, and I hope you stay connected to this community to encourage others in their own quest for truth.
@Anonymous agree and disagree. For unknown stranger, let me assume you still consider yourself a Christian. I think you definitely should reflect on your motivation if you feel excited after hearing that. But also I need to point out the word "heresy" only referring to the opposite of the unified, GODLY church. And I think that, from the perspective of a Christian, we should correct the the false practice of our church and in extreme circumstance, criticize out lot the "heresy" church before it further damaging the image of GOD, and the reputation of Christianity instead of feeling sad and walking away. For unknown stranger, if you think GP has some bad practice but you still considered it a GODLY church, I suggest you speak it out. And if you still want investigate, make sure you correct your attitude.
DeleteMost tithes come from the working members/staff. The idea is that each plant is sufficient on its own, so you'll find plants in cities with healthy job markets (supports the transition of student to full-time staff). Money from various offerings (traditionally Thanksgiving, others) are typically given to a church need (can be another plant). Once you sign the membership covenant, you can attend the budget meeting for more insight. You won't get everything you asked for but I'm sure if you ask an older leader, they will be transparent. The budget meeting goes over some of it, paid staff of GP have humble salaries. I do think these list of questions seem more interrogative so I'd suggest being nicer if you were to discuss with a leader :)
ReplyDeleteAnd DTs are understandably hard to answer because it varies. There might be a team, a pastor, or such. It probably changes by season and year. You can ask around and they'll tell you who writes it, it's not a secret. Things get lost within a larger organization.
The church runs on offerings from all attendees and members. When I used to attend, we were taught specifically to give 10% of everything, including financial aid we received. I gave Gracepoint thousands and thousands of dollars, as a student on financial aid with work study every semester.
DeleteI don't think things were that strict when I was in school because only those who had on-campus jobs were told "maybe it's time for you to start tithing".
DeleteHow exactly things were phrased definitely might have been different for each individual though. One time I was shocked to see in my living room a list of expenses for the month. Turns out my roommate was keeping track of how much they were spending. But the not-so-typical thing I noticed was they calculated how much more they were spending on church than they were spending on for themselves. It was written as a percentage, church spending was five times more than personal spending. Never occurred to me to calculate that sort of statistic so I don't know why my friend did it.
I remember in Course 201 (discipleship training course that you were expected to take after Course 101) being told explicitly to give 10% of everything I "spend." Stories of staff member giving large sums of money were idolized, even though the exact amounts were not shared.
DeleteAnd the above behavior you describer is odd at the very least. Telling of the culture why anyone would ever do such a thing.
DeleteThe Bible says to tithe 10 percent every 3 years (Deuteronomy 14:28).
ReplyDeleteThat makes it 3.33% of your earnings, not 10%.
First time hearing this logic. Personally think that the 10% tithing is arbitrary. We ignore most of the laws in Deuteronomy, why make an exception for this one? However, Jesus did say to give generously (give to anyone who ask) and he had some harsh teachings against the rich.
Delete(I am "OP," but cannot log in from this device)
DeleteI agree with you on Old Testament laws. The New Testament is abundantly clear that Christians are no longer bound by the laws in Deuteronomy. The point of the "3.33% post" is to highlight the internal inconsistency of Gracepoint (or any church) demanding, or even expecting, a 10% tithe. If we are not bound by Old Testament Laws that prescribe how much to tithe, then neither are we bound by Old Testament Laws that mandate "tithing" at all.
Simply put, Gracepoint cannot have their cake and eat it too. If it is doctrinally incorrect to use the Old Testament to refute a 10% tithe, then it is also doctrinally incorrect to use the Old Testament to demand a 10% tithe
Then maybe gracepoint has changed since the "old" days because my entire time in gracepoint, no one ever told us how much to tithe. That's why sometimes I would have conversations with my friends about how much would be an appropriate amount.
DeleteTithe means a tenth so the amount is in the name.
DeleteRecently came across Al Mohler's idea of theological triage that this pastor extends to include "4th level doctrines." https://marcminter.com/2018/11/16/theological-triage-a-call-to-thoughtful-christianity/
ReplyDelete"These things have no clear imperative from Scripture; they are matters of Christian conscience. These matters are sometimes called “adiaphora,” which literally means “indifferent things” or spiritually neutral things. These Fourth-Level doctrines are the wise, biblically principled grounds from which we make decisions about where to go to school, what job we should take, what party we should attend, what coffee we should drink, or how long we should let our hair grow.
These Fourth-Level doctrines must not build fences, otherwise, we will be attempting to bind the consciences of fellow Christians on matters in which God has left freedom. In fact, dogmatic Fourth-Level doctrines are the very definition of legalism. We ought to give one another grace and charity where God gives us liberty."
It seems like Gracepoint elevated many of things that should be 4th-level doctrines to 2nd-level doctrines. Things like owning a TV, what kind of car to buy, alcohol consumption, where to live, time spent with relatives etc.
Hi, I'm very thankful for this post on the history. I never had the full picture though I was part of the staff and one of leads of a class at gp. It seemed taboo to ask about the history and what exactly happened. The most I got was that something bad and hints about adultery and disagreements regarding the church.
ReplyDeleteI was part of gp since early 2000s. I will say that I was saved at GP and came to know God. However, after leaving, it was like the scales fell off my eyes and I was able to see clearly for the first time. I was able to speak my mind without fear regarding the things that bothered me and that didn't sit well with me. I felt bitter and sad and confused over all that happened. However, I am thankful that I did grow in different ways at GP despite all the bad things. Of course, after leaving people who are still at gp treat me differently (if they communicate with me at all). Even if I want to genuinely connect with those whom I had called friends, it's awkward because you can tell they aren't sure of how to talk to you or what to talk about. I've been on the inside of gp and seen people who left. I've been the awkward one who didn't know how to talk to those who left. And now I've been on the other side of experiencing what it is like to have left. After leaving, it is difficult because most of my life has been engulfed by gp. My 20s, my marriage, raising my kids. I'm wondering if you have any resources for those who have left who are trying to heal, trying to make sense of everything, trying to get rooted in their relationship with God (rather than being dependent on a leader), trying to form their own convictions (rather than obeying a leader), trying to learn how to parent (rather than have others raise their kids for them via babysitting), trying to reestablish trust in church leadership and to be able to once again serve God in the church again. I now find the thought of ministry and leaders scary and have a hard time. I can't approach leaders at a new church without fear.
I don't have any specific resources to recommend. Be gentle with yourself and give yourself time to heal from the spiritual trauma. Therapy is great. Books on emotional abuse and co-dependency are great. Progressive churches have been helpful for me. Listening to women pastors and POC pastors have been great, especially Black pastors. Give yourself permission to not be a minister or leader at this time. There is a season for everything. Hoping the best for you dl.
DeleteIf you don't mind sharing, how were you able to leave GP after starting a family? I imagine that must have been an extremely difficult experience.
DeleteGP's problems come from the same place any church's problems do: sin and trying to tell right from wrong using your own ideas instead of what the Bible says. When you don't ground yourself in truth, your thoughts will naturally gravitate towards selfish and idolatrous paths of thinking. Remember it isn't the way you live that saves you, but Jesus Christ's death on the cross. And it's sufficient. I pray God gives you healing and grows you and your family.
It may not be entirely applicable but a good resource is looking at former UBF forums and books. I believe one of the author's in the blog were in a similar position to you when they left UBF. They were married in that group and as a married couple were trying to transition their family away from that part of their life. I believe their group shares many similarities to UBF since according to the blogs Rebekah Kim had some form of association with the group. I can see the bleed over in Gracepoint culture at least.
DeleteHere are some links below. http://www.ubfriends.org/
http://ubfriends.org/restunleashed/category/ubfism-discussion-websites/index.html
Book: Identity Snatchers by Brian Karcher
just a quick comment on korean names -> english names thing. YB was pretty much always "Daniel YB Im" from the time I met him in 1991. People called him "YB" but he was also "Daniel" from the beginning so I don't think it was something that sort of showed up later in life.
ReplyDeleterumor (so don't know if it's true) was that YB was the KSA "beer man" back when he was a freshman in college. if anyone wants beer 24/7, YB always had a stash because he was the man! again, just funny rumor talk that went on at berkland back in those days.