As pointed out by a commenter, the hidden Yelp reviews of Gracepoint Fellowship Church at Berkeley are rather telling. Here is a review posted by "Grace" on 8/19/2016.
As new students arrive to Berkeley, I must review Gracepoint rather than stand by. I don't deny that the outward actions of Gracepoint members seem nice. I myself experienced the positive aspects many describe: a sense of community, people bringing me food or helping me move, etc. But there are deeper issues at stake:
At Gracepoint, thinking for yourself is discouraged. In a bible study, I heard one member respond to "How can you believe in something you cannot see?" with, "By listening to authority, by trusting people who are wiser and know more than you." Yet Christianity is deep and complex and requires thought and understanding, not blind following.
Obeying authority is a constant theme. Leaders often quote Hebrews 13:17, "Obey your leaders and submit to their authority..." The verse doesn't bother me, but rather the proportion of times this is quoted at Gracepoint compared to other passages, such as those that describe the role of a spiritual leader. For instance, they never quoted 2 Timothy 2:24-26: "And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will." The congregation is constantly reminded to obey leaders, but the role of leaders as gently correcting and patiently enduring while erring Christians repent of their own volition is unmentioned. This imbalance conveys the sense of being controlled rather than repenting on one's own.
Bible studies are structured rigidly so that multiple interpretations are discouraged. In addition, sin is emphasized while God's love is de-emphasized. Once, in prayer and devotion group, I shared that Hosea 11:1-4 showed me the magnitude of God's love. My leader replied that I should instead think specifically about how to repent. In another bible study, one girl said she thought the passage showed God's love. The leader instead emphasized the sinfulness of the characters in the passage. Later, when I was having dinner one-on-one with the bible study leader, she recalled the discussion and said she thought the girl was wrong in emphasizing God's love, and that we should focus on our sin. This focus on sin and reluctance to allow the congregation to recognize God's love results in a legalistic, Old Testament church experience that centers one's actions entirely on guilt, and creates dependence upon Gracepoint leaders for guidance in all areas of one's life. It breaks my heart that some Gracepoint attendees will only ever experience Old Testament guilt, but none of the New Testament love that comes from Jesus' death for us.
Moreover, hanging out with non-Christians, or even non-Gracepoint Christians, is discouraged, though indirectly and subtly. A Gracepoint member told me she had no non-Christian friends, because "What would [she] talk to them about?" Members occasionally remarked on how "other bible studies" drink alcohol, or how "other churches" were unfriendly and didn't have as many activities. This institutes an us-versus-them mindset, transforming Gracepoint into an exclusive group. Whereas Christianity is about loving other people and not judging them, and emulating Jesus, who actively chose to spend time with prostitutes and tax collectors. This Gracepoint exclusivity is judgmental, and results in members forming an identity that is completely dependent on Gracepoint group identity. E.g., members who sometimes doubted Gracepoint behavior told me they would never consider leaving because "all their friends were at Gracepoint" and they lived with other members so even their housing depended on Gracepoint. Two other members said they would rather spend Christmas with Gracepoint than with family. The subtle discouragement against spending time with non-Gracepoint people results in isolation and total dependence on the church.
I left Gracepoint because as a Christian, it was difficult in such an environment to distinguish between what Gracepoint wanted for me and what God wanted, and my focus should have been on the latter. Leaders would tell me, "My vision for you is that you become a leader in this church." I find that problematic, since I'm concerned with God's vision for me, not another human's vision for me.
So while on the surface, Gracepoint seems like a biblical church, I strongly advise anyone checking it out to 1) think for yourself; 2) attend other churches too and gain experience on the various manifestations of a biblical Christian church, especially if you are new to Christianity; 3) read the Bible on your own, as verses can be taken out of context or interpreted narrowly. 4) Reconsider whether you are worshipping God or a church. Some church cultures lend themselves too easily to worshipping the church itself rather than God, due to subtly legalistic behavior.
It's too bad that so many one star reviews are hidden. And while I understand reviewers' desire to post anonymously (only having 1 review in that profile), it seems Yelp hides those reviewers more easily. It's actually quite telling that so many are afraid to come out publically with their past experiences of Gracepoint. Don't you think?
If you feel comfortable with it, I encourage you to post a review using your regular Yelp profile so that your review doesn't get hidden and does get factored into the star rating.
You can find all reviews here: https://www.yelp.com/not_recommended_reviews/gracepoint-berkeley-berkeley
As new students arrive to Berkeley, I must review Gracepoint rather than stand by. I don't deny that the outward actions of Gracepoint members seem nice. I myself experienced the positive aspects many describe: a sense of community, people bringing me food or helping me move, etc. But there are deeper issues at stake:
At Gracepoint, thinking for yourself is discouraged. In a bible study, I heard one member respond to "How can you believe in something you cannot see?" with, "By listening to authority, by trusting people who are wiser and know more than you." Yet Christianity is deep and complex and requires thought and understanding, not blind following.
Obeying authority is a constant theme. Leaders often quote Hebrews 13:17, "Obey your leaders and submit to their authority..." The verse doesn't bother me, but rather the proportion of times this is quoted at Gracepoint compared to other passages, such as those that describe the role of a spiritual leader. For instance, they never quoted 2 Timothy 2:24-26: "And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will." The congregation is constantly reminded to obey leaders, but the role of leaders as gently correcting and patiently enduring while erring Christians repent of their own volition is unmentioned. This imbalance conveys the sense of being controlled rather than repenting on one's own.
Bible studies are structured rigidly so that multiple interpretations are discouraged. In addition, sin is emphasized while God's love is de-emphasized. Once, in prayer and devotion group, I shared that Hosea 11:1-4 showed me the magnitude of God's love. My leader replied that I should instead think specifically about how to repent. In another bible study, one girl said she thought the passage showed God's love. The leader instead emphasized the sinfulness of the characters in the passage. Later, when I was having dinner one-on-one with the bible study leader, she recalled the discussion and said she thought the girl was wrong in emphasizing God's love, and that we should focus on our sin. This focus on sin and reluctance to allow the congregation to recognize God's love results in a legalistic, Old Testament church experience that centers one's actions entirely on guilt, and creates dependence upon Gracepoint leaders for guidance in all areas of one's life. It breaks my heart that some Gracepoint attendees will only ever experience Old Testament guilt, but none of the New Testament love that comes from Jesus' death for us.
Moreover, hanging out with non-Christians, or even non-Gracepoint Christians, is discouraged, though indirectly and subtly. A Gracepoint member told me she had no non-Christian friends, because "What would [she] talk to them about?" Members occasionally remarked on how "other bible studies" drink alcohol, or how "other churches" were unfriendly and didn't have as many activities. This institutes an us-versus-them mindset, transforming Gracepoint into an exclusive group. Whereas Christianity is about loving other people and not judging them, and emulating Jesus, who actively chose to spend time with prostitutes and tax collectors. This Gracepoint exclusivity is judgmental, and results in members forming an identity that is completely dependent on Gracepoint group identity. E.g., members who sometimes doubted Gracepoint behavior told me they would never consider leaving because "all their friends were at Gracepoint" and they lived with other members so even their housing depended on Gracepoint. Two other members said they would rather spend Christmas with Gracepoint than with family. The subtle discouragement against spending time with non-Gracepoint people results in isolation and total dependence on the church.
I left Gracepoint because as a Christian, it was difficult in such an environment to distinguish between what Gracepoint wanted for me and what God wanted, and my focus should have been on the latter. Leaders would tell me, "My vision for you is that you become a leader in this church." I find that problematic, since I'm concerned with God's vision for me, not another human's vision for me.
So while on the surface, Gracepoint seems like a biblical church, I strongly advise anyone checking it out to 1) think for yourself; 2) attend other churches too and gain experience on the various manifestations of a biblical Christian church, especially if you are new to Christianity; 3) read the Bible on your own, as verses can be taken out of context or interpreted narrowly. 4) Reconsider whether you are worshipping God or a church. Some church cultures lend themselves too easily to worshipping the church itself rather than God, due to subtly legalistic behavior.
It's too bad that so many one star reviews are hidden. And while I understand reviewers' desire to post anonymously (only having 1 review in that profile), it seems Yelp hides those reviewers more easily. It's actually quite telling that so many are afraid to come out publically with their past experiences of Gracepoint. Don't you think?
If you feel comfortable with it, I encourage you to post a review using your regular Yelp profile so that your review doesn't get hidden and does get factored into the star rating.
You can find all reviews here: https://www.yelp.com/not_recommended_reviews/gracepoint-berkeley-berkeley
I have been attending a Gracepoint Church for a few years. Though the Sunday messages are great & there are many wonderful, kind people in this church, the leadership culture is borderline toxic.
ReplyDeleteBecause the Bible commands us to avoid gossip and talebearing, I will not reveal any giveaway information about the parties involved. However, we are also commanded to expose darkness and falsehood, so I will share my experiences:
1. The Culture of Confession:
Multiple times, my small-group leader and I have met one-on-one. They were quite pushy and persistent in asking me about my "unconfessed sins." I shared with them many sins and weaknesses I was struggling with (or had struggled with in the past, but had recently overcome). I shared a lot of very sensitive facts and details. The worst things I've ever done, my most perverse thoughts, my most venomous words---it all came out. During some weeks, I didn't have much to say, since the bulk of my sharing had been done in previous meetings.
My leader was often dissatisfied with the extent of my sharing. They constantly felt that I was (a) Not giving enough details, (b) Not focusing on the right kind of details, and (c) Only confessing my more trivial sins.
I was accused of being (and I quote) "dishonest," "hiding information," "too arrogant to be vulnerable," and "unwilling to accept the truth about myself." But the truth was, if I answered their questions in any other way, I'd be fabricating information. When I explained to my leader that I had, in fact, already shared a LOT, they rolled their eyes and responded, "No, you only think you have."
During a prior "confession session," I shared with my leader a minor conflict earlier that week that caused me to get annoyed with a friend. This is a friend whom I usually get along with very well. By the time I was sharing, the conflict had already been resolved.
I was absolutely EVISCERATED. My leader said (I quote) that I was "very immature," "don't truly love or care about your friend," "have absolutely zero compassion," and that "this incident "completely reveals the state of your heart." They spent so much time berating me, I was late to my job later in the day.
One moment they're saying that what I've shared "completely reveals the state of my heart." The next moment they're accusing me of "hiding information" because I'm not sharing enough. They've already completely defined me based on one piece of information, and now they're complaining that they need to know more. Huh?
I don't understand the concept of trivial sins. "Trivial Sins" is an oxymoron. EVERY one of our sins helped nail our dear Savior to that cross. James 2:10 tells us that whoever stumbles at one point of the law is guilty of all. There are NO trivial sins! Unless you are under the Blood of Christ, even one sin is enough to split Hell wide open the moment you die.
Having been part of GP, I recommend you switch leaders. Some leaders are extremely inexperienced and stuck too far in their heads. I learned over the years at GP some leaders don't have an ounce of wisdom or really developed a relationship with God having made a salvation decision in college. That being said, choose wisely.
Delete(continued)
ReplyDeleteGracepoint's stance on confession has been explained in the following way: Students need to confess their sins, great and small, to their leaders, because everybody has a "blind spot." We need loving reminders from each other in order to see the sins in our blind spots, so that we may repent.
How do you confess something that is in your spiritual "blind spot?" If you're not aware that you have a problem, it is impossible for you to tell anyone about it. If you are already aware that you have a problem, then you don't need anyone to tell you---because you already know! You don't need someone to tell you something you already know. It doesn't make sense!
Matthew 18 gives us the protocol for confession. It is right to confess to those who have been affected by your sins, to seek forgiveness and make restitution. However, there is nothing about confessing to an unrelated 3rd party. God is the only Judge you will have when you enter into eternity. Your small-group leader isn't going to be your lawyer at the Judgment Seat of Christ---because they have their own lives to account for!
2. One-Sided Transparency:
Gracepoint has a HUGE emphasis on being completely open and vulnerable. Members are encouraged, and often coerced, to confess their sins to their leaders.
James 5:16 says to confess FAULTS, not SINS. Confess only to those you have wronged. Your private sins are between you and God. Even if we were supposed to confess all sins to each other, it still does not follow that GP's doctrine on confession is Biblicaly sound. Why are the confessions completely one-sided? Why aren't leaders expected to confess their sins to us? What happened to the "each other" part? I have NEVER heard any leader speak openly about their weaknesses. At best, they confess sins that they committed 10-15 years ago.
The result? The transparency is completely one-sided. An imbalance of power is put in place. While the leaders know all kinds of sordid information about the congregation, we know nothing of their weaknesses. This leaves us with no choice but to trust that they are morally and spiritually superior. While they keep their members in a perpetual stronghold of accusation and reprimand, they can't be held accountable.
In Psalms 32 and 51, King David provides a model for repentance. Please note that both Psalms are written directly to God, not to man. David writes, "Against thee only have I sinned..." While David acknowledges his sinnership, he does not enumerate his sins or describe exactly what he had done.
3. Arrogance
My small-group leader has said to me twice before, "If you don't like what I have to say, that means you don't want to hear the truth about yourself." I have also heard at least one other leader make this comment within the past year.
There is much boasting that goes on in communications between leaders and the people they lead. Whenever a leader is reprimanding a member during a "confession session," their reprimand almost always has to include an example of how the leader was in a similar situation, but handled it perfectly. For instance:
"Even though it's expensive, I let anyone eat food out of my fridge whenever they want."
"I used to be just like you, until I realized how wrong I was."
"You clearly have issues with entitlement and feeling entitled to comfort. I would get up at 2 am to talk to anyone who needs it."
It really makes me wonder: Do they really want you to improve and grow in your Christian walk? Or do they simply want you to continue looking up to them & being perpetually dependent on them for spiritual edification?
----------
Summary:
I don't think Gracepoint is a cult. However, there is definitely an BIG issue with excessive pride and self-righteousness among the small-group leaders. Be careful what you confess, because anything you say can (and might) be used against you.
I read one of the recent yelp posts (8/3/16) and it's been bugging me for a while. It's sort of how I felt when I first attended Gracepoint, the kind of review I would give. I don't know if that person is new, or a long time member, it could just be me projecting. So anyway I wrote a rebuttal of the arguments this person listed. It was just bothering me too much that it was just sitting there at the top of the yelp reviews without any sort of context or counter arguments. If you feel this is too much to post I'll understand. I'm debating if I should reply directly to that person or post it on yelp, probably a bit mean. So I just compromised and cut and paste it here.
ReplyDelete--------------------------
1) People said that Gracepoint sucks up all your time
I don't understand this. If you were committed to Christ and His way of life, you would know that first and foremost you should serve other people. That means cooking, cleaning, giving whatever little you have to your friends and to the church. Doing that obviously takes more time, and giving your time to the church should be a component in any Christian
------------------------------------
It’s not just that that they take up your time. It’s that you can’t really say no to these activities. Remember how they said, accepting Jesus as your lord and savior must be of free will? If someone pointed a gun to your head and asked if you would marry them, then of course, you would say yes.
This is the very principle that does not apply in Gracepoint in doing the above. None of those things you listed are bad, but there is something sinister when everyone feels peer pressured or fear a rebuke or heard a message in a small group about not giving enough time to the Church. I mean God.
Not everyone has the same gifts. Some people really aren’t good at handing out flyers to strangers or public speaking or whatever else task Gracepoint decides is important at the moment. What if God called you to be a doctor or writer or financial provider to glorify him in some way? But that is really hard to come out in a gracepoint environment where you’re being pressured to serve exactly the way your leader feels like at the moment. As stated in several other reviews and posts, people have had to give up job opportunities or studying or grades or graduate school because gracepoint pressured them.
Not to sound like an ass or anything, I've come to realize that's more of a fabrication on your side to believe Gracepoint is forcing you to give up those things for ministry and people end up getting the consequences of struggling to find a job post grad.
DeleteYou do realize there are a number of doctors, dentists, post docs, EE, bio, CS grad school students and what not in Gracepoint. For crying out in Berekley there's a Visiting Scholar Ministry and IGSM. Are they really going to tell them to screw school for ministry? In other words, no one gave up anything. I like to also point out that it depends on the luck of the draw with your leader. I had a leader who was a Haas graduate and another who was a biology post doc. And someone in my lifegroup someone in his EE research team was also in Gracepoint. Instead of telling us to spend more time in serving, they locked us down in study hall when we needed to and studied with us when we needed to and encouraged us to manage our time more wisely. Not all staff are stupid enough to misunderstand stewardship and yes people aren't stupid enough to counter the church needs money to run and some people are financial benefactors beyond the base line of loving others.
The answer to these problems Cannot be "well you just have to get lucky in the leader you're assigned" or "pick a different leader." That's so incredibly problematic. What percent of the leaders are not "stupid" ? 20 % ? 50%? How do you know which ones are good? Should there be a leader Yelp? Do you keep sticking with a wrong headed leader and just live with the consequences? A 20 year old college student is supposed to be savvy enough to figure all this out ?
DeleteThere's a larger problem that gracepoint has some combination of culture and teaching that is routinely churning out leaders who do , well all the stuff mentioned by others. And the solution is you have to get lucky and/or pick a different leader ?
Well what I did was ask for a leader switch. It's something called building a relationship and picking who you know isn't a broken record and legalistic. During my time there, you could kind of tell based on the way you probed, how they engaged with you. One of my leaders was the stereotypical annoying Gracepoint leader who couldn't stop getting in my face about everything and firing bullshit accusations at me. I went straight to one of the deacons that I had a really good relationship with and she agreed I needed to switch and I requested only certain leaders who I had build a relationship with and knew I could trust. My following leader that I requested was drastically different, got in my face about the right things, and supported me as much as he could and still in touch with him even after I left.
DeleteAnd no it's not always the culture the problem, it's just a people problem and the inherent nature to follow. And yes, a 20 year old student is supposed to be savvy enough to figure out. If you're smart enough to choose what college and who your friends are and your study group is I'm sure you're smart enough to figure out who can and can't mentor you especially in your spiritual life.
Well have to agree to disagree. If after reading all the independent accounts over several years you still don't believe there are any real problems, then I guess there's nothing left to talk about.
DeleteBut just so I understand, on top of exams and classes and picking a career and family and financial responsibilities and finding out more about Christianity and how to best serve God, it's also a students' job to handle an abusive church leader?
And this church leader will continue to be a leader for some one else I assume and will be foisted on someone esle ? I just want to make sure that I'm not exaggerating.
Like I said, I am not rejecting that there isn't a problem, I'm also suggesting it's a two way thing. Leader is shit. The student isn't much better in their own ways. That's usually what I see and know of with people when I was still there. Student decides to pout about it online and then walk off rather than trying to fix an issue. And something wrong with you needing to be " on top of exams and classes and picking a career and family and financial responsibilities and finding out more about Christianity and how to best serve God". Church isn't beholden to your needs. You figure out what you need and you seek people to help you in the spiritual walk. Yes it's a bit of a process to juggle things but once you have a family you likewise will need to make the same decisions in every aspect to help your family in different aspects. I don't see why you walk in with the milennial mindset like the church has to fit you.
DeleteAnd yes, so what if the leader remains leader for someone else, that's that person's business and not mine. My only job is call out the leader and find someone else that can better disciple me.
" If you're smart enough to choose what college and who your friends are and your study group is I'm sure you're smart enough to figure out who can and can't mentor you especially in your spiritual life."
DeleteIf you're smart enough to figure out who can and can't mentor you in your spiritual life, then you're smart enough not to need that person's leadership. In order to differentiate whether or not someone's leadership is Biblically sound, your spiritual knowledge and discernment would have to be comparable to theirs, which means you would not gain much from their leadership.
2 Timothy 3:16-17 explicitly declares that the scriptures are sufficient for making a man "complete" and "thoroughly equipped"
The Bible also declares that there is "one mediator between God and mankind," that that mediator is Jesus Christ, NOT a human church leader!
There is also, "Cursed is the man who trusts in man, who makes flesh his strength."
Ephesians 4:12 describes the role of church leaders. However, Verse 13, which immediately follows, begins with "UNTIL." The word "until" always indicates a deadline or expiration date or stopping point. Sure enough, Ephesians 4:13 declares that the jurisdiction of those leaders ends when the people/person they lead "attains unity in the faith and knowledge of the Son of God." Unless you are very new to Christianity, you are capable of studying the scriptures and acquiring understanding for yourself, without relying on leaders to feed it to you.
The Bible also says that everyone must give account for themselves at the Judgment Seat of Christ. On that day, your leader will also be giving account for their own life, not acting like a lawyer as you are the one being judged. Is God going to accept, "But my leader told me XXXXX?" as a valid excuse? If you believed in some unbiblical things, is God going to absolve you because it's your leader's fault for telling you? If misguided leaders are the ones at fault for the misguided beliefs of their mentees, then nobody would ever be held accountable for anything! Point is, you can't rely on Gracepoint leaders (or any church leader) for spiritual edification, because God (not God plus your leader) will be your Judge when you enter into Eternity.
Except they say that you must rely on them and it's almost a condition of belonging there.
Delete(I am the May 6, 2020 commentor from above)
DeletePrecisely why the Biblical validity of Gracepoint leadership is questionable at best
To clarify my post from 6:22, I'm not agreeing with or siding with the person who said "If you're smart enough to choose what college and who your friends are and your study group is I'm sure you're smart enough to figure out who can and can't mentor you especially in your spiritual life."
DeleteThat person's statement about the student being responsible for choosing good spiritual mentor results in a logical paradox. If someone is CAPABLE of identifying a good/bad church leader, then they don't NEED that person's leadership. If someone NEEDS a leader, they must be new to the faith, and may not possess the spiritual knowledge to differentiate between a good/bad leader.
ReplyDelete2) Barriers between girls and boys
Of course no one really minds if you talk to the opposite sex. That's all good - it's you being closer to your brothers and sisters in Christ. I also was a little disturbed about how segregated it all was, but I realized that like 10% of the time you're segregated, 90% of the time you're not (sitting during service, hanging out in homegroups, eating together, etc). On top of that, you have to at least agree that their intentions are good: to not lust over the opposite gender, regardless of how hard it is. It's just a guardrail that protects you if you fall.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That is in fact NOT all good and they actually mind quite as bit if you do that. I’ve been rebuked or at least talked to several times for just talking to girls i had no interest in. Like studying before a big exam. Or laughing at some joke together while the leader was driving us home, then being interrogated by my leader afterwards, “which one do you like?” Because they have a right to know that stuff, I guess. Also the time I came home to my apartment and alone and got questioned by 3 older guys, which sister do you like and tell us why. As a joking way of finding out so they can correct my errant ways. Or just being nosy and using that as a pretense. And I have to mention the other time I came home after 1am because I had an exam the following day, only the be questioned by my housemate, ooh, why are you out so late? You’re acting really suspicious.
I could go on, but my point is the gender segregation is the tip of a titanic sized iceberg they are using as a pretense to police your activities at all times and question anything that slightly possibly even remotely smells fishy. It’s like lupus, basically. A hyperactive overly active immune system ready to pounce on anything that looks like a bacteria, even if it’s a healthy cell.
Leading eventually to them choosing and picking your future spouse for you. I’m not kidding, it’s probably as cult like as it sounds. Also they break up couples whose pairing they don’t like. I was told by a Gracepoint pastor, “I won’t officiate your wedding if I don’t approve of who you are dating.” Just let the implications of that sink in.
They list all these arguments and reasons as to why it’s harmless and actually good, but upon further examination and playing out this scenario to its logical conclusion, it's pretty darned sinister.
I'll have to say this is once again luck of the draw. If your peers and staff are that anal, then yes it will feel that way. I have seen MANY positive instances where bros and sisters in Gracepoint were able to interact in groups independently of leaders and leaders encouraging that. Gracepoint maybe extremely protective to a point of ridiculous and prude but I have seen many churches that screw up the whole dating and protecting its members from people hitting on them to a point people quit Christianity as a whole. Some times it is better to be safer than sorry. Can they do a better job of managing it? I think so especially properly explaining their side, but if you understood how bad some churches have hurt people, I don't think you would be as critical.
DeleteAnd no, no one picks your future spouse for you. That has BEEN extremely clear with the engagements and dating going on. Yes, many staff have explicitly told me who they have dated inside Gracepoint and gave me reasons why they didn't pursue that person.
All the last 5 engagements of recent were done through their own volition. My most awkwardest peer that we didn't imagine (sorry bro :P) was the first one to get engaged to the peer sister we least expected. Stop spreading untrue statements that no longer apply anymore at least in Berkeley.
We could go back and forth forever on this. Of course they never say the pick a spouse for you. They simply create the circumstances where it's impossible for you to meet anyone on your own , the only pool of people available to you are in the church and the leaders maintain at least veto power over who you pick and in my experience exercise a lot of decision making power. "We never forced you to do anything " is just a convenient excuse, we only created the circumstances by which you make the decisions we want you to make. Pointing to counter examples of people who met successfully doesn't discount the fact that it did happen to many others.
DeleteI won't discount that there are many members who are smart enough to meet all the demands of the church and successfully graduate. But there are also multiple cases where people were pressured into participating in church activities to the point they did have to drop out of school or suffer other consequences.
DeleteAnd yes , I have heard and been told to screw your grades and school and job for ministry. I've personally known people told to forgo promotions or grad school acceptance if it took then away from a gracepoint church.
I'm sure there are some leaders who are empathetic enough to not go along with all of gracepoint ways , but by pointing out its the luck of the draw, it seems to acknowledge there are many leaders who practice such troubling behavior.
Again just citing examples to the contrary does not disprove it happened. Outliers have to Outlie something , ie the norm there is what is being called out.
My theory is gracepoint members live in a bubble. There are many examples of people still in the church who met their spouse there, etc. The leaders can point to the success stories to silence critics of their banew on dating.
DeleteYou know what happens to the couples who were broken up by the leaders? Or hurt by their dating bans or meddling ? They leave. You never meet them, even if you're a long time GP member. Of course it may see like the critique of their policy seems exaggerated if you stay in the bubble
3) Facebook???
ReplyDeleteI don't think having a fb is really an issue? It's because you end up spending way too much time on it and use it as an idol, which contradicts Christian morals. That's the same with not obsessing over celebrities, studying too much.
-------------------------------------------------------
Let’s just for now ignore the fact that facebook was a useful tool that helps people communicate including but not limited to citizens being oppressed by ruthless dictators and facilitating events like the Arab Spring. And also some could see see how church leadership would not want to let their people to be exposed to opposing ideas or outside influences. Also it helps me login easier to some websites rather than remembering another password. (don’t worry I only go there to buy Bibles and stuff like that). Let’s just skip that part.
Facebook didn’t exist in biblical times, I’m 99% sure, but some leader didn’t understand it just like most middle aged or older people don’t understand the music, culture, technology or whatever of the younger generation and label it evil. Elvis used to play the Just like “devil’s music,” but the generation after it thinks of his music as classic. So of course if I don’t understand it, and because someone is spending whatever subjective amount of time on it that I deem to be too much, it must be evil.
All technology has the potential by its users for good or evil. An argument Christians love to make when it supports their argument, but are blind to when they randomly ban things the pastor thinks is bad.
Facebook probably does have the potential to be used for good or bad, but the solution can’t just be telling technically-Not-minors (i.e. adults) that they can’t use it or they’re sinning.
Whatever we feel like is bad is bad. Because we say so.
Meh some staff still have their Facebook. Likewise some staff have Twitter. Pastor Ed's kids still have their Facebook and actively use it. It's just a personal choice of getting distracted or wandering mind. I don't know what the issue is. Once again, this would be more of the "I have an issue and let's drag every person into that because I need a support group".
DeleteSounds like you are making excuses for their bad behavior. If Facebook suddenly became acceptable when before it wasn't, shouldnt an apology be forthcoming?
DeleteWhy do you need an apology in the first place?
DeleteAnd not really, I think you're exaggerating the scope of the issue.
I get there will never be any apology, but i find it troubling that the attitude is so cavalier about it . " Well you're exaggerating". "I've never see that happen you must be making it up." "Well we don't do that anymore." After all the people that were hurt and the stories mentioned here and other places, the attitude is still, well all the problems are exist only in your head.
DeleteYou can choose to believe them or not but its hard to argue with this many accounts. I get it, when you're in gracepoint the leaders are saints and can do no wrong. Anyone who disagrees with them must have ulterior motives or be lying.
But I wished at the very least there was some humility among the leadership, enough to say that if there really were these many stories, what if we really are hurting people?
Why do you need to attach the credibility of those hurt by the church rather than trying to ask if they are real and if such problems exist ?
DeleteThat's a leader's issue that you should've called out. I've blasted some leaders in the past when I was still there in front of more senior staff for their cavalier attitude and bullshit statements and accusations. And what's talking about with story is more of an individual leader matter of how they should be navigating and explaining and working around it. That's more of a individual maturity issue than a church issue.
DeleteAnd no the staff are sinners in the same way we are. Like I get it, the same problems exist to a lesser extent, but do you think you bitching on an online hater site is going to change it or is growing a pair of balls and calling things out going to make the difference and keeping true to your convictions with God.
How do you know I didn't already call them out to their face? The fact they won't change or even be receptive to listening to people point out problems is why these sites exist. Just like you are allowed to defend them. I know there's a zero chance we'll agree. but people deserve a place to vent and to hear both sides of an issue. If they only learned about gracepoint from gracepoint members they will just hear things like what you said.
DeleteIn terms of "bitching" and "having ball" I will gladly talk in person to you or anyone from gracepoint
4) You become a sheep
ReplyDeleteWhat. I don't think being a "sheep" is a right word?? I think that if you end up accepting Christ as a foundation (regardless of people, group hangouts, etc) then you end up trying to follow what He says. If doing that makes you a sheep, then I guess I am one.
---------------------------------------------------
There is a difference between serving god and serving the Church. And, for myself at least, when I hear the complaint about being a sheep, they are referring specifically to being subservient to the edicts of the church leadership which may or may not be biblical, and tends to be subjective and based on whatever thing they feel is not Christian at the moment.
Being proud of the fact that you are not questioning your leaders and not seeing the difference between them and God is how cults get started.
As stated in the movie Spotlight, “I still consider myself a Catholic, I just don’t attend the catholic church....The church is just an organization made of people.” This is the difficult position that former gracepoint members, or at least myself, find themselves in. Yes I would like to serve God, but how to do I differentiate that from whatever crazy thing that just happened at Gracepoint (see above).
5) Righteousness
ReplyDeleteSTRAIGHT UP I HAVE NEVER FELT THIS EVER. Basically all of Christianity screams about humility, how we're sinners, all that jazz. I have never, in all my days in Gracepoint, have I felt any kind of righteousness/holier-than-thou mentality. Everyone in this church understands that we are no better than anyone else, and therefore are kind, understanding, and accepting of those who are impure and sinners.
--------------------------------------------------
Just because you have never personally felt it doesn’t mean it hasn’t affected other people. If you really haven’t that’s great for you, props. I really mean that. All those things are what Christians should be aspiring to.
Saying you want to lose weight and then eating a bucket of ice cream just doesn’t look right. I’m not judging, I’ve done that before. I still feel the culture at gracepoint fosters this mentality all the time. There really has to be a distinction made between what is said on Sunday in a sermon and what actually happens the rest of the time. You can find plenty of examples of this from others’ reviews. Including but not limited to being told to spend more time with the gracepoint church rather than your home church / family and jokes made in passing about how watered down christianity outside gracepoint is. Harsh criticism of people who leave for other churches or other reasons. I’ve heard leaders say, Why would you go to that ministry? They don’t have staff and etc. like have. (This was when I was a freshman trying to decide on a campus ministry to attend)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm sorry for all of those people who have not experienced that same things I have, and I want to urge you to take another chance with this church. If not, you might miss out on the best thing of your life!!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think many of have experienced what you have at some point. I’m guessing you are relatively new and that is why you feel the way you do. I could be wrong, but I can honestly relate to the feelings you expressed here.
But many of us after that initial period stayed longer and eventually ran into the not so nice side of being in Gracepoint.
Your last sentence bugs me, give another chance “with THIS church.” That is specifically the mentality of righteousness/holier than though that I personally felt. Why this church? Why not any other Biblically sound church? Try our church again, and if you really don’t like it, then maybe then you can go try another church?
I may have just tried to copy and paste something, but it was too long, and i think I messed up the formatting when I tried to break it up into smaller posts. I'm not sure how to contact the blog owner but if possible can I redo my post?
ReplyDeleteIt looks fine.
DeleteCurrently in a Gracepoint church. How much will leaders pressure me into staying and becoming staff once I graduate?
DeleteHard to say, really depends what they think about your 'potential', but historically speaking there's a possibility
Deletelol... i just met with someone in the USC church about this. from my experience, as long as your firm with your leader and ask for their blessing to support you, they will not reject it. ALSO at least in Berkeley, doing college ministry is your business, recent grads are given a one year trial period to just chill out and sort things out and transition. So it depends on your church plant.
DeleteHello!
ReplyDeleteFirst, it's been a wild range of emotions. One being extreme sadness that my gut feelings were not mere gut feelings. Another being relief that I wasn't imagining things. And pleasant surprise that people are still actively posting here.
I'm not too familiar with gracepoint as I am from the east coast and have been attending the church here for a relatively short time. However I was led here after attempting to do some research on the church and leaders, largely because of the aforementioned gut feelings that something was off. I don't think I am caught in a cult, however I do agree that there are obvious signs even to a relative newcomer like myself that the leadership and culture is dangerous.
I'd love to talk more in depth with someone who has more insight on the churches and leadership over here.
Feel free to email me
DeleteJaydubya2020@gmail
Currently in a Gracepoint church. How much will leaders pressure me into staying and become a staff after I graduate?
ReplyDeleteAnon, I wouldn't say that it will be perceived as pressure but rather manipulation. They will say that you are not right with God if you have not surrendered all areas of your life. They will especially mention that you must surrender your career, but what that means is vague as you will find out. You will eventually deduce that what they perceive as surrendering one's career is not moving outside of the local city where the church is based. This conversation will come from your home group leader during chapter 6 of course 101. I cannot specifically say how they will pressure you to become a leader because I left at the beginning of my senior year, but I perceive that they will control your decision by manipulating you by creating this perception that you have not surrendered all areas of your life along with other things said that would make you question if you have truly received Christ and are saved from sin. An article that may not directly answer your question but describes a church that uses similar tactics: http://www.charismamag.com/life/177-j15/features/developing-discernment/143-is-it-a-church-or-a-campus-cult
DeleteThanks for your informative response. How was the process of leaving during the beginning of your senior year?
DeleteMy pleasure. Basically I went to my peer mentor after service one day and said that I will not be attending Gracepoint anymore. It was kind of funny because he sort of walked right into it. At the end of service the pastor had everyone raise their hand as a way where we would commit to improving our faith in God. After service my mentor asked if I raised my hand and I said no. He asked why and that's when I told him I was leaving. We then chatted for a while afterwards mainly cause I was putting off the departure since I sensed that it would be awkward when I decided to leave. So really there is no official process of leaving the church since you have free will just like anything else you do not want to be a part of anymore. I would say that there are multiple ways to leave the church so it's hard to necessarily gauge how each person's departure from the church will be since you can leave and tell nobody if you want. Your peer mentor might text you or call you and ask why you haven't been coming lately if you just stop going without telling anybody, but you can block their phone number of course. They won't really try to pander you if you told them it feels like or if you never respond to a text or phone call then your former mentor would just stop trying. I would say the best method of leaving for you would be the one where you would be least likely to change your mind about staying. Because when I was talking to my mentor while I was discussing my departure, he said things like, "make sure your not leaving because you don't want to give up certain areas of your life" or something similar. But when it comes to my suggestion, I suggest you leave no matter what state you are at with the church (i.e. really happy, hang out a lot with church peers) because as you see on this site and elsewhere things can go really south in ways you wouldn't have imagined. You can always make new friends or hang out with your church peers outside of church if they are willing, but it may take years to get over any suffering or depression that could be brought over you through the cognitive dissonance that you will start to have the more they exert their authoritarian will over you. And it would be ridiculous to say that there is not another church out there that will provide the same good things that gracepoint provided you. You may not find that new church immediately and it may be more difficult to build relationships at first since the people at that church are honest and upfront rather than employing love-bombing cult techniques that you observed first hand at gracepoint.
Delete(I'm the OP on this comments thread. The two October 30th comments are mine. Just wanted to chime in on this topic)
ReplyDeleteThis is one other area of Gracepoint that I'm very unnerved by. I believe that their doctrine is dangerously close to the heresy of Works Salvation. My small-group leader told me at least a dozen times before, in one form or another, that salvation means that "every single area of your life must be fully surrendered to the Lordship of Jesus." Most of these interactions did take place during Chapter 6 of Course 101.
There are several glaring problems with this teaching. Nobody can say that they've "surrendered to the Lordship of Jesus" unless they've done it 100 percent. Nobody can say that they've "obeyed Jesus" or "put Jesus first" unless they do it 100 percent of the time, because to violate even one of God's commandments is to violate them all. In other words, anyone who claims that they've surrendered all to Jesus is claiming to be without sin, and the Bible exposes them as a liar.
Lordship salvation is self-righteousness, plain and simple. Let the person who is completely free of sin & 100% obedient to Jesus be the first one to preach Lordship salvation. You don't change your lifestyle IN ORDER to get saved or to maintain your salvation. You change your lifestyle BECAUSE you are saved. Lordship salvation mixes up the Cause and Effect.
I disagree on your statement that "anyone who claims that they've surrendered all to Jesus is claiming to be without sin, and the Bible exposes them as a liar". That's not true. Where does in the bible states that they will be sinless? No one is perfect in obeying to Jesus or putting him first, but people do it because they want to and believe that Christ really died and saved them. Lordship salvation isn't self-righteousness. It is accepting that I'm no god of my life (I didn't create myself), rather created in God's image and that I'm so loved by God that he sent his only son, Jesus, to die on the cross for me so that I am righteous before God. We all don't deserve God's love, but God sees us as his children and loves us unconditionally.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
Delete"No one is perfect in obeying to Jesus or putting him first, but people do it because they want to."
DeleteThat's the problem. Someone HASN'T put Jesus first unless they do it 100% of the time. The Bible could not be clearer. James 2:10 declares that to violate even one of God's commands makes you guilty of everything. Nobody who is still sinning can say that they have "surrendered all to Jesus." They can say that they've surrendered 80%, 90%, or 95%, but they are a liar if they say that they have surrendered "all."
It's that simple. All sin is disobedience to what Jesus has commanded. Sin = disobedience. Disobedience = failing to surrender to the Lordship of Jesus.
A few years ago, I was in a car with a GPer, who made the statement that salvation means "every area of your life must be fully surrendered to the Lordship of Jesus." The speed limit was 45. This person was driving at nearly 60. Clearly they haven't surrendered their driving habits (aka their obedience to the Law of the Land) to Jesus. By their own words, they are not saved because there is one area of their life that is clearly NOT surrendered to the Lordship of Jesus.
https://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Books,%20Tracts%20&%20Preaching/Printed%20Books/Dr%20Jack%20Hyles/Salvation/lordship_salvation.htm
DeleteCould not have said it any better
If you are right now in a position where you have just recently left Gracepoint, I hope this message can help you overcome some tough feelings you experience right now.
ReplyDeleteI don't know how you are exactly feeling right now, but I don't think it is a positive one. I can be wrong. If you feel lonely, abandoned, betrayed, or even lost, don't worry, this is the toughest part and it will pass. You may feel this way, because your entire network circle was pretty much people associated with Gracepoint. Perhaps you don't want to talk to them anymore. Perhaps they don't want to talk to you anymore. But I tell you what, there are people still out there who will be willing to sit down and listen to what you are going through. You just need to find them. When I was going through this part of my life, I thought it was unlikely that I can ever overcome this, but I found that it was even unlikely that strangers around me, even at the streets are kind enough to ask me "Are you alright?" or "What's bothering you?" The world is not full of selfish, unkind beings. It’s just that the kind ones are rarely appreciated and oftentimes forgotten. Talk to you family members about what you are going through. Maybe talk to a professor or an educator, most of them care about your well-being and want to do everything in their power to help you succeed. Once you are at a point where you feel stable and mentally-well, keep yourself occupied with something. Try joining a sports team. Maybe even a student org or another church. The point is surround yourself with people with similar common interests. You are not that different from everyone. I understand this phase may be challenging for some of you, because you’ve been hurt before and are not ready to move on. Take your time. I’m suggesting you to keep yourself occupied, because the sooner you are with another group, the faster and easier you can overcome this rough experience. The last thing I want to say to you is this, don’t think less about yourself. Maybe they have pointed out some flaws about your character, but that doesn’t mean you won’t change. If you don’t believe everything you heard in Gracepoint, do not feel sorry for yourself. Jefferson once said “We hold these truth to be self-evident, that all man are created equal,...” You are no better nor worse than anyone in Gracepoint. If you feel you are unworthy to have friends, because most of your closest friends cut ties from you, that’s not true. It is not your lose, it is theirs. If you think people at Gracepoint are watching you, you may be right, but do not think they are all watching you just to judge you. Some who are deciding to leave are watching how you respond to your dire circumstances, they want to know how you end up after you left. If want to set a good example of why you strongly support leaving Gracepoint, you must demonstrate that you are happier and better off overall than when you are at Gracepoint. You can succeed doing that by doing two things, 1) be educated and 2) grow up. You may feel they have robbed you of your time, education, maybe money, I don’t know, but they can’t take anymore if you leave. This message is in no way intentionally demoralize Gracepoint, it is intentionally written to offer a solution for those who are battling this harsh part of their life. I know all you reading this can overcome this, you are much stronger than you think.
Dear John: I read this blog painfully. My close friend from high school went to Berkeley and went to Gracepoint. I watched him suffer a lot after he graduated. I cannot help but notice how everything on this blog matches what he told me.
ReplyDeleteI cannot help but notice some of the mistakes some of the blogs are making about Gracepoint. It is this: gracepoint is committing a heresy. Or rather multiple heresies. Many of these blogs and posts and Gracepoint's website insists that it is a Christian college group, when it is following heretical ideas that could be traced back to the days of the early church.
1) Gracepoint, just like most college cults, are committing legalism. This is a very old heresy that is mentioned in scripture, in "Pilgrim's Progress," and was known to the early church in Rome. One way to think of legalism is treating Christianity like getting into college. This is heresy because you are saying, "I've saved because of my own efforts and my own deeds." This is a subtle heresy because it seems correct.. on the outside. It seems like one can follow all these rules and be saved. It's almost like The 10 commandments are like lines of computer code. Churches cannot go around isolating and harshly disciplining their members. It seems like a good idea since the ENDS seem Biblical. But the MEANS are wrong. The ENDS do not justify the MEANS.
2) Please see a book call "Churches that Abuse" They discuss the phenomenon of college cults in the America. It is written by Ronald Enroth.
3) The church is trying to create an Acts 2 church... This is in fact in Acts, and other denominations of Christianity still practice it today... It's called a convent. in other words, modern Christians today still do practice the Acts 2 lifestyle... but it's reserved for those who received a special calling to be part of this order. If you want to be a monk or live in a convent, you can... but the individual who enters this life style goes in knowing full well what it truly entails. Whereas Gracepoint is not being honest to the unprepared college student.
4) Gracepoint places more emphasis on living together as in Acts 2, but it states that sunday worship is not emphasized... as if the "ministry of the layperson is not considered to be different from that of clergy." This is wrong for so many reasons. This violates the 10 commandments. "considered"? What an arrogant phrase. What could be more heretical that this?
5) All churches have their own traditions ever if we don't want to admit it. Some denominations more so that others will acknowledge their traditions. But some churches, esp. evangelical ones, will openly state that they have no tradition. Grace point has traditions... some of which are quite deviant from historical Christianity.
Hi, I've been part of Gp for about 3 years. I was part of the high school group and will soon be attending one of the UC's this upcoming fall. I used to attend a different church where I was saved but joined Gp because I needed some form of discipleship. However, lately it's been getting really, really difficult. I don't want to be extremely detailed here, so please leave contact-info if you don't mind chatting with me. I need discernment whether I should continue to be with them when I attend one of the UC's or try out another group. Thank you!
ReplyDeleteFeel free to email me
DeleteJaydubya2020@gmail
Hi, i have a question. What is pastor Ed like in person? I've only heard his sermons during retreats, but he seems sort of cold and cynical. Let me know please, i am curious
ReplyDeleteHi Anon,
DeleteI was a member of Gracepoint for quite a while. I left to pursue graduate school. Pastor Ed in person is a pretty cool and genuine person. Though many people/blogs do paint him in very negative light, my experience with him was nothing but positive. Of course, many would disagree with me, but in my experience I liked Pastor Ed. He definitely was OK with people leaving and would also give his blessing if someone wanted to leave. Hope that answers your question.
Thanks for your reply.That's good to hear.
DeleteWhy do you think other people disagree?
It's hard to articulate because I like Pastor Ed, but if you read the blogs/earlier posts, there are many contentions that people have with Pastor Ed and make it seem that he's aloof. Could be that he's the lead pastor, maybe a bad counseling session, his sermon style/delivery, etc. I'm not quite sure to be honest. Sorry I can't help much in that regard.
DeleteI left Gracepoint after being it in for a few weeks, but am now looking to try it again as I'm desperate for fellowship and friendship. But I'm not sure if this is the best idea due to Gracepoint's reputation... does anybody have any suggestions on what to do?
ReplyDeleteI understand how you feel. It's hard to decide. Gracepoint fosters good fellowship and friendship because of their resources, such as activities/events and devotion times, but their view of the gospel is not correct. They're so focused on ministry that it blinds them to the message of grace and salvation. Everything they do is based on what they believe is right (gracepoint doctrine), not entirely what the gospel says. For example, ministry is supposed to be purely voluntary for church members. It's done out of the gratitude of the heart. If someone doesn't want to be involved, that's ok. God is very merciful and patient. He is more concerned about our hearts and wants us to grow in understanding of his love. That is always above everything. Gracepoint doesn't get that. Worse, they say that they understand BUT they still want you to have some obligation to the church. They will even make you believe that you are lazy or neglectful for not doing so. So, if you join right now, you will be expected to serve in one way or another as time goes by. They even bend scripture in a way that fits gracepoint doctrine that ministry is above everything. All i have to say is that if you decide to return, please be careful. Study the gospel so that you will be able to discern god's true will for you, not gracepoint's "vision for you".
DeleteI honestly do not recommend GP because it is mostly legalistic and i have never in all my years there, heard them preach true grace which says that we have christian freedom (found in Romans). This is probably the most important truth in understanding grace. Once you understand it, you'll know why Gp often shys away from preaching it.
I can go on, but its best if you pray to god. He will guide you. Have you checked out other fellowships on campus?
What are some of those other fellowships on campus that you are referring to here? Thank you for your post.
DeleteI left Gracepoint immediately after graduation in 2011. It's been such a long time. I have had fond memories of fellowship and being part of a Christian community at UC Berkeley. But sadly, these relationships don't last beyond your leaving that church when you feel that God places a burden in your heart to move back home to be closer to family or other circumstances. In the years I've left Gracepoint, God has graciously shown me all the wonderful things His people can accomplish for Him no matter where they are at. I'm validated about my decision to move back home in Southern California, being a part of the lives of people I otherwise would never have been able to if I had stayed with Gracepoint. Back then as an undergrad at Berkeley, I always had an uneasy feeling about staying with Gracepoint beyond my graduation. Now, I'm able to decipher the exact reasons why I had these uneasy feelings about Gracepoint. The constant emphasis on doing and doing, even if your heart is not in it, is pretty much a work-based culture that's engrained in the Gracepoint culture. If you don't participate in these church activities as much as your peers do, then you are pretty much "marked" as a less spiritual person. Most of these church activities as just games, outings, and social stuff anyway with other church people. It's crazy because when I told my leader one time I was going to hang out with a non-Christian friend of mine, I could pretty much sense that this is looked upon. This is one of my greatest, if not the greatest, regret because those relationships with Gracepoint ended when you leave the Gracepoint church. Another thing that bothered me a lot is how many of these people who joined Gracepoint actually attended other churches prior to joining Gracepoint? Maybe a lot of these Gracepoint members had a personality type that lended to them being attracted more to this type of church culture. The culture is very much works-based, feeding and fueling people who fear coming up short against their peers in the hierarchy. When you are an undergrad, you need to be reaching out to freshmen. When you are post-grad, you need to be staff at a certain time. It's really borderline cult-like. Also, I can't help but realize now, years later, what a tremendous dis-service that Pastor Ed has done to other churches out there by constantly indoctrinating college students with the "us" verses "them" comparison, trying to sell Gracepoint as that superior church that enables its members to be productive for God's kingdom. That's terrible because it's so untrue. I remember distinctly Pastor Ed preached that someone he knew back in SoCal doesn't impact anyone's life because all she does is just go to Bible studies once a week. This is a gross generalization of life outside of the Gracepoint bubble. Pastor Ed can't fool me because I've seen better. Again, this church probably attracts certain types of Christians, maybe those who are extremely impressionable (i.e. new converts).
ReplyDeleteMay I ask where in Southern California you moved? Have you found a new place of worship there - a community that represents what you feel a Christian church should be?
DeleteI left garcepoint a month ago, and I have never felt so free, full of joy and energy. I don't need to worry about what to say during prayer meeting. I don't need to brainwash and force myself to admit my leader is right and I am wrong after every 'spiritual' conversation. I can just read whichever bible passage I want, and spend a quiet time with god without worrying about my interpretation of god's words does't fit the gracepoint standard.
ReplyDeleteIt did take me a while to make the final decision of leaving. My words are : don't afraid of leaving and some changes happen in your life. God created the universe not the gracepoint. No matter where you are, your life is under his control, and he will be with you.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI became a born-again Christian before I joined Gracepoint as an undergrad. Despite me telling my leaders that I know I'm saved by faith in Christ, they were never fully convinced because I didn't seem spiritual enough for them. They suspected and questioned my salvation just because I didn't have the outward appearance of being spiritually mature according to Gracepoint standards. I fell short of their standards because I didn't attend a lot of their events (outings and such) and studying with the brothers and sisters at that building they rented or bought that's directly across from Asian Ghetto (you can tell I've been out for a long time because I forgot the name of that building!). But I never missed a Friday night Bible study if I could help it and never ever missed a Sunday worship service. I had a part time job and also wanted to be a responsible student by passing my classes at Cal because that was why I was there, to get my degree. So that's why I placed Gracepoint social events secondary. Social events for the most part was just bonding with other church people anyway. To me, spending more time with non-Christian friends should be prioritized if I were to make a positive impact on them for Christ. To the Gracepoint leaders though, going to all these social events with church people is to them productive, but that is just a personal conviction on their part that they seek to impose on their members as an absolute measure for your spiritual maturity. They fail to realize that they've taken that way too far to the point of encroaching on a person's identity in Christ if he or she does not conform to their standard.
ReplyDeleteIn hindsight after all these years, I cringe at the thought that my leaders questioned my salvation because through their eyes, I didn't measure up. I've seen posters on this site asserting that we're a bunch of bitter souls venting out our frustration and that by doing so, we're not in step with the Spirit. But I want to point out that putting our experiences online is telling the truth and helping others to see that us who have been there, done that, are okay because years later, we're healed from the spiritual wounds and past experiences from our Gracepoint days. It's to relate with others and help others with our realization of the unhealthy practices of the Gracepoint church. We're not bitter souls. My goal in posting this is to get the truth out there, to expose the truth that Gracepoint fosters a culture of jumping through hoops to demonstrate you're worthy of reverence from other human beings, which is basically, feeding that fleshly desire for human approval and missing the whole point of grace. In fact, the culture of Gracepoint is so stifling, that it's ironic that the word 'grace' makes up the first part of their name, 'Gracepoint.'
This church is a cult. Please stay out.
ReplyDeleteIt's not a cult. It's a legalistic church. Cult is different.
DeleteHi I have been attending ABSK (Asian Baptist Student Koinonia, which is the college ministry of Berkland Baptist Church) for 2 years and a half and just left recently. After I left, I was wanting to search for some comments on ABSK and I thought I could find some as this is a huge organization. However, nothing came up after a few hours’ searching except those official websites. And for the only video I could find in YouTube, the comment function was disabled.
ReplyDeleteLater, I found this blog through the founder’s name Rebekah Kim. I surprisingly found that everything mentioned here is the same as what is going on in our church (more accurately, every Berkland Baptist church under the leading of Rebekah Kim). But I had no idea of the relationship between GP and ABSK. Then I did more research and figured that Gracepoint is used to be part of the BBC before Pastor Ed made the split off. Since the split off, Pastor Ed changed the branch’s name to gracepoint and claimed that they are independent from BBC. So officially, GP and ABSK are two different organizations. However, in essence, they are identical. Gracepoint is just operating under a different name since then. But their practice is no difference than any church under the leading of Rebekah. BBC has set up churches in Boston, Philadelphia, Washington DC in East coast and they all have different names (I believe they used to have the same name of BBC but later the leaders decided to change all the churches’ names and make the names different). The Boston church is currently under the name of Antioch Baptist church, and Philly one is called Philadelphia Mission Baptist Church (PMBC), and I believe the Washington DC one is called Worthy Life Baptist Church. But all the student ministries in East Coast have the same name, which is ABSK.
“I'm not sure any of these distinctions mean much to them, but from a student's standpoint, the effect is mostly the same, abuse is abuse” (quote from Jay Dub, thanks!)
During the 2 years, I struggled a lot in ABSK, same struggling as everyone else mentioned here. And it took me almost a year to finally make the decision to leave. I know a lot of students in ABSK have the same pain as me but don’t know what to do.
So I really want to suggest that the blog owner can add ABSK in the title of this blog or at least mention it somewhere, so that people can find this blog through searching “ABSK”. Most people in our churches don’t know anything about gracepoint, like me. It is hard for us to find this blog based on what we know about ABSK.
Sincerely,
I agree with this comment. It would be helpful to list absk more often, as a lot of the east coast churches fall under this category.
DeleteThey wonder why students are leaving while other fellowships are successful.... hmmm.... take it as a sign. You can say that Absk isn't for everyone, but also something isn't right.
I've been reading about GP for many years, and live in Berkeley. They are a cult.
ReplyDeleteLearn the definition of what a cult is. Gracepoint is the farthest thing from the cult. They are just a very community driven church to a point it's legalistic and protectionist at times.
DeleteDriven, legalistic and protectionist are not adjectives to describe a cult?
DeleteI'm not saying they're a cult but if that's the defense of them, man.
Cult implicates that they are worshipping something that's not even God or remotely following the bible maybe even fabricating things on top of the bible.
DeleteThe church has it's heart in the right place and they are truly focused on the Gospel, but like many churches they just have their big place of screw ups namely legalism and overly protective of the church. And tell me what church doesn't have it's big screw ups. All the churches I've been at have a myriad of issues such as really ugly politics and abuse of spiritual gifts. And what's wrong with driven? I think it's fantastic they have a very specific goal in what they are trying to achieve for the Gospel. Not sure I agree with their methods at times but they are still very focused on the Gospel and that's what matters at the end of the day.
So please go learn your definitions first before you go call them something they are very far from.
Look. If we are going to speak out against GP's practices, then we have to at least use correct terms. Otherwise, our arguments against them would be considered invalid by them and by newbees, making it harder for us to convince them that it is a church to be avoided. GP is a LEGALISTIC church. Their governance and practices are unbiblical, but they are not a cult. Look up the meaning of the word cult and you'll see that they're not that extreme with their practices.
ReplyDeleteNow that I've been outside of Gracepoint long enough, I can see clearly that they are very odd in the way they carry out their ministries. They only plant churches in college campuses with a large population of high-performing Asian American students, with an extreme emphasis on "high-performing." There are other college campuses, like state universities with large student populations that I don't see them making more of an effort to reach out to. Sure, they have ministry in CSU East Bay and maybe some other college that's not a UC or higher ranked university, but still from a quick glance of their recent church plants, you can see their bias. California is a huge state with lots of colleges, so why do they target mostly the top ranked universities? For all their claim of their mission of planting an Acts 2 church on college campuses is worth, the colleges they've chosen for church plants sure do reveal their inherent bias and favoritism. Anyway, I just want to get out my thoughts on realizing this bias of Gracepoiny. Didn't Jesus love and spend time with those at the fringe of society, like tax collectors, prostitutes, people inflicted with leprosy, and other people viewed as unclean? Jesus ministered to a wide variety of individuals. That's why I thought it's extremely odd of Gracepoint that they just plant churches to minister to those just like themselves and don't ever partner with other churches to spread the Gospel. That's one of the red flags about Gracepoint that bothered me. The other major red flag is the legalism of course. Just my thoughts. Maybe it's not just me that is bothered and disgusted by Gracepoint's natural affinity towards the model, high-performing Asian Americans just like themselves.
ReplyDeleteI disagree with you on your statement with the notion of high performing or they would not have gone to George Mason University or Rutgers for their first wave for east coast church planting. They could have gone to UVA and Princeton of all places but they didn't. Sure there may be a slight bias due to job hunting and needing to find people with more job flexibility but I don't think it was that big a factor. I have grazed through their scouting trips likewise none of that is mentioned.
DeleteTo all those who have left, how did you approach it? I am currently in a position where I am considering leaving, but I don't know how to initiate it.
ReplyDeleteI've been attending A2F for three years now, and I have considered leaving before, but I convinced myself not to. In my time here, A2F has helped me grow spiritually, but at the same time, I've noticed a lot of the more negative points of the church mentioned in this blog and the comments. Now, I've reached a point where I feel I need to find another church.
Just go up to a leader that you trust and tell them you're leaving or just leave without telling people. I don't get why everyone makes it such a big deal. If you come from a sincere place in your heart, they'll pray for you and support you. And which A2F are you at, I can possibly give you names of people I know will be understanding depending on the church plant?
DeleteI recently left GP about a month ago. Definitely pray about it. Pray for wisdom. Pray for a peace of heart. Pray for guidance. For me, in addiction to prayer, I also sought advice from my closest peers. Granted my situation and reason for leaving was probably different from yours.
ReplyDeleteAt the end I just talked to my leader about my decision. And that was it. Pretty simple. I had already found a church to attend before I actually left. I think this is very important. Definitely try not to leave and then spend time church hopping to decide on a new church. Do your research beforehand, visit another church if you have to (before you officially leave GP), and then immediately commit to another church after you leave GP.
Best of luck.
Thank you for this post. May I ask what church you joined after you left, and on what basis did you choose it for yourself? Thanks.
DeleteMost of these comments are from people who left Gracepoint, but remained Christian, so I just feel compelled to write something for anyone who may be reading and considering leaving Christianity completely.
ReplyDeleteI went to A2F for 3 years and left in 2014. My advice to my past self would be: trust yourself. That's the thing that makes me the most angry and sad about my experience there - that I was indoctrinated over and over again about how I cannot trust myself and I can only trust "God" (but really what they meant was the church leaders). Any gut feelings and instincts I held, I suppressed because that was what I was taught to do. Well, I was right all along, and I was strong enough to get out eventually. It was a tough road and I went through a seriously depressed phase during senior year, thinking I would never have friends or be happy again, but now I'm doing so well. I'm so thankful to have escaped.
To anyone struggling alone and afraid, like I was 3 years ago - trust yourself.
my experience in UCI gp becomes the last straw that break the camel's back. Their disgusting behavior trying to control members definitely strengthens my belief that religion is hazardous. I was a passive atheist, but now I know I am right about my stance. GP has gone too far.
DeleteI don't think you should claim religion as a reason why you shouldn't explore Christianity and understand it. Compared to the dotard in chief and those idiotic politicians who do things in the name of Christianity, GP is pretty mild.
DeleteIm currently a member of Klesis, though over at their new ministry on the East Coast. Just started up this year.
ReplyDeleteFirst off, I should put out there that I am an Atheist. They found me my first few days of school here, and the combination of them becoming my friends and my lack of knowledge about such a vast topic (religion, specifically Christianity) led me to join.
I can't say my experience is similar to those above. Maybe since this is a new group, maybe since they got different members, who knows. The head pastor is a really nice guy, and is great fun to hang out with. I get along pretty well with all the other guys, and they text me and invite me to events even though they know we don't share beliefs (I am pretty sure they have given up on trying to convert me at this point.)
The one thing I have noticed, though, is that a lot of the "life talks" or other sessions that I am in, they always seem to be directly pointed at myself and my beliefs. Instead of talking about Jesus and the history of the bible, or how we should live our lives, they instead spend 2+ hours talking about 'God is real vs. God isn't real.' I always feel like these discussions are skewered towards me. They don't really help me with what I want to learn, which is about the bible and about the history of it and about the interconnections of all the religions of the world. It doesn't really help the Christians in the room, either, since they are set in their beliefs and this talk doesn't do much for them.
Other than this, I don't really feel pressured into a lifestyle. I guess I feel pressured to come to events and spend my Friday evenings with them, but I don't feel pressured to do certain things or live my life a certain way. Maybe it's because I am an Atheist, and they don't want to bother pushing me into a lifestyle since it isn't really applicable to a "non-christian". Who knows. Guess I will find out more as the year moves forward.
The new church plants usually have more freedom to work with building their version of Gracepoint. I do remember a number of staff who were assigned to church plants talking to me about stuff I really disliked about the Gracepoint before I left and they had plans to break a lot of the vicious cycles that have been created that they have personally experienced themselves or aware about. Site moderators note that not everyone in Gracepoint is a fool like you make them out to be or blind.
DeleteUsually the welcome week events are usually geared to the ones who haven't really questioned life and Christianity in general. I think if you were to approach the staff telling them you were a lot more interested in exploring the bible they would love to probably help you with that.
I think the pressure will be heavily dependent on the leaders which tends to vary across the church. Times are changing.
I recently quit UCI GP because of this blog. My experience is similar to those stories. In the beginning, the staffs seem nice and warm. Then, when I planned to ask a girl inside the fellowship out, they reveal their true colors. Because I don't her number, I asked a peer for her number. He asked me why I want her number, I said I planned to ask her out. He refused because he didn't feel comfortable giving out sister's number. I was like alright. Then, the staff invited to eat dinner. After we chatted a while, he changed the subject regarding my plan to ask the girl out. He said I am not ready to date. Here's my main problem with this: first, the peer snitched me out. He should not report this do the staff. Second, the staff directly told me not to date. I stop going for a while, but I don't have any other friends, so I went back. Eventually, I found this blog. Regarding the arranged marriage thing, as ridiculous as it sound, I'm not surprised. Three of the staffs unexpectedly engaged to other staffs. They don't even interact like couples. Where is the passion and intimacy? I encourage students to avoid this church. The legalistic structure and borderline cult behavior is wrong.
ReplyDeleteNow that you mention it, I have noticed this as well. I am on a new east coast group they started, called Klesis. I have been with them for almost 3 months now, but last week I noticed my friend (who is one of the original members from California) had a wedding band, and I commented about it. He said that his wife was one of the girls I knew, who was also a staff member. Ive literally never seen them talk or interact. They don't even live together. Weird stuff.
DeleteMy floormate told me yesterday that one of his friends quit the group after they encouraged them to not have friends outside of their group. I think I will approach them about all this stuff at the next meeting.
Personally, I haven't noticed much of this selective pressure, probably because I am an Atheist and I just go to the meetings to study religion and it's history. Probably I don't fit into their 'world view' or something. Who knows.
It pains me to see the gp is rising in America. I envy atheist now because growing up as a christian. My life has been repressed. In my childhood, my parents forced me to play musical instrument(not one but two) because I have to serve and glorify god one day. Despite my unwillingness and struggle, my parents insisted anyway. The church teached a lot of obsolete ideas that are incompatible to modern society. Sure, I used to think that religion can be beneficial as long as the goer believes as true. The end justifies the mean. However, GP gave me an epiphany: I was so naive. The end doesn't justify the mean. My christian life is full of torment and oppression. GP has crossed the line of "the end justifies the mean." It is flat out detrimental. American is such an intellectual yet idiotic country. I grew up in one Asian country btw
DeleteI'm going to set the record straight.
DeleteIf every horny freshman decided to show up at a church only to ask girls out what purpose would there be in building a God focused community. I've seen enough damage done with fellowship groups and churches with fools who arrogantly believe that it's a right to go ask out a sister and not have a leader intervene and it shouldn't be the church's business.
And meh, the not telling was kind of my slight irk, since they were always pretty serious why they just didn't tell people since it was pretty much 75% guaranteed to be married. Ever since I left the church, the staff have been pretty honest in telling me about their dating life. So it's probably an internal church problem since the church is really big and I have been behind news many times such as broken engagements, so I'm in between on the matter.
Second the arranged marriage has already been thrown out and ended for at least a good f'in one decade now. Yes people freely date. I can even tell you that some staff have dated around the church and things don't work out. Where the f is arranged marriage in that?
And lastly this site needs to step perpetuating the outdated bullshit about Gracepoint that's not even relevant to this generation of staff that are so far removed from the Becky Kim days.
And why does a couple's private life concern you? And maybe because it's their decision to help out with the younger sister staff temporarily? All couples back in Alameda live together happily.
And I was part of Gracepoint in college and I had a tons of friends outside of the church, like they honestly care.
Site moderators please start cleaning up the outdated bullshit from this site especially the crap from Becky Kim days that is very far removed from this new generation of staff.
The couple's private life concerns me because I suspect the information regarding arranged marriage is true. They don't act like couple, but they engage. It doesn't look fishy to you, maybe. But it looks fishy as hell for me.
DeleteI have been to many churches, none of the staff intervenes dating. So asking a sister out is an arrogant belief huh? You sound more arrogant and self-righteous defending gracepoint.
Last thing, you did not encounter those problems. Good for you. I salute you and give u a lollipop. But other people can present their stories as they want. Suggesting the mod to clean out "outdated bullshit" isn't going to help. The people have the right to know what happened in gracepoint before and now. They can decide whether to go to gracepoint based on others and yours experiences.
I agree. the way that gp groups people together to which they only spend time with a group of people and engage in their personal relationships is bs. If your kid went to gp and texted you that they were engaged and they seek all their advice and approval from their leaders/pastors, would you feel the same way? Obviously church shouldn't be a dating market, but with the means that this church does to keep people at gp, they suck you in and rush relationships to marriage in a matter of months. have you dated someone at gp? have you married someone at gp? obviously no. you're just telling us what you see on the outside. They may seem all happy and dandy but you can't flip people off for what they first hand experience or their family members experience.
DeleteHi as someone who recently graduated UCI and left their church on good terms. I can see how you think your peer snitched you out. It's true he did, but probably because he thought it better that an older person with more years living and dealing with these issues would have more wisdom on the topic. Also, they are staff, but I thought of them as spiritual leaders. In order to be your spiritual leader, need to know your life. I think that's a common misconception that most people have about GP. Their position is mentor and you are their mentee, you don't need to know everything about their life, mostly because you wouldn't be able to relate. They have problems with work, money, marriage, more adult stuff than we did as undergrads. As an undergrad if my leader told me about his problems with his wife, what can I say as advice? That just makes no sense to me. It's like a boss and his employee, he needs to know everything about your work life, what your projects are and how you are doing on them, but you don't need to know everything that's going on in their work life.
DeleteAs for the arranged marriage, I don't know how this rumor got around and how you can see it? Maybe explain a little bit more of how it it showed up in the staff? Because for me, my staff got married to someone out of our church plant. Someone in Berkley who was doing youth ministry. He told me before he got engaged that he was dating and and was thinking about getting married to her. Three months later he announced he was engaged. Normal enough for me. Just because they got married within the church does it mean that it's arranged? I just think that GP the way they surrender their lives to Christ is very extreme and it would be hard for someone outside of GP to marry into that, though I have heard that has happened before and he was able to learn and thrive into GP. Also, I don't know about you, but if someone who was my spiritual leader started to kiss his wife in front of me, man that would be like the first time my parents kissed. Awkwarddddddd. They probably showed passion and intimacy in private. Though they did have like subtle ways of intimacy that I probably didn't notice as an ignorant undergrad.
Either way I left GP because I thought that with the problems I was having at home required me to be with my family and they respected that. It wasn't hard to leave at all. They helped me find a church at home that would allow me to grow in my relationship with Jesus Christ and they wished me well. They still email me from time to time see how how they could pray for me and how I am doing and I appreciate them trying to keep up the relationship, but from a distance.
Hi Anon on Jan 16 at 10:52 AM,
DeleteThe fact that you would compare the leaders at GP to a boss or manager at work speaks for itself. But that is also how I thought when I used to go there!
I'm glad the leaving GP wasn't a painful experience for you. Unfortunately, it was an extremely painful experience for far too many people.
"In order to be your spiritual leader, need to know your life. I think that's a common misconception that most people have about GP. Their position is mentor and you are their mentee, you don't need to know everything about their life, mostly because you wouldn't be able to relate."
DeleteWhy would the reverse be true? You wouldn't be able to relate to their life, so why would they be able to relate to your life? Just because they are older? There are nearly 8 billion people on earth, and no 2 individuals have had identical life experiences. To think that you automatically understand someone's life and/or are automatically qualified to give them advice or criticism just because you were once their age, is a gross oversimplication of just how complex and diverse humans are. It is also quite presumptuous.
Didn't Timothy hold leadership positions in the early church despite being a young man? In fact, Paul explicitly reminded him not to let his youth hinder his ministry. Didn't David and Joseph also become leaders over their elder brothers?
In response to OP's analogy of church members & leaders having an employee/boss relationship... I have never seen a single company org chart in which someone's age and their job title had a perfect, 1-to-1 correlation. In my company of over 500 employees, the CEO is not the oldest person on the org chart. There is a 63 year-old Director whose manager is a 58 year-old VP. There is a 36 year-old Technician whose manager is a 32 year-old Engineer. There is a 27 year-old Programmer who is in charge of several people 3-5 years his senior.
The Yelp review by "Grace" is 100% correct that Gracepoint leaders are extremely inconsistent when it comes to applying Biblical standards to themselves versus members. They constantly quote Bible verses instructing members to submit to their authority and leadership, but are completely silent on verses which describe THEIR obligations as leaders. The accountability is one-sided.
ReplyDeleteDuring my time at Gracepoint (2014-2016), there were many leaders with very poorly-behaved children, who routinely engaged in behavior including (but not limited to): hitting and kicking, grabbing things out of people's hands, telling adults to "shut up," calling adults "stupid," and randomly swinging tree branches and pine cones around in a crowded space after being repeatedly asked not to. Yet the Sunday messages are conspicuously and curiously devoid of 1 Timothy 3:4-5: "He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church?"
The above is just one of many examples showing how Gracepoint leaders are extremely duplicitous when it comes to applying Scripture to assess people's behavior. Members are expected to obey the leadership, but leaders are not expected to meet the criteria for being a church leader in the first place. When members fail to conduct themselves in a Biblical fashion, they get harshly (and sometimes publicly) rebuked by leaders. But when leaders demonstrate their inability to exercise leadership by refusing to correct rude, inappropriate, or even dangerous behavior by their children... *crickets*
Before anyone chimes in with: "Who are you to judge their children?" Keep in mind that rebuking church members for any and all slip-ups is precisely the job description of Gracepoint leaders. If they insist on holding people to a certain standard of conduct, there's nothing unfair about holding them to equally high (if not higher, hence James 3:1) standards. Besides, I didn't write the 1 Timothy 3:4-5, God did! If Gracepoint leaders can't handle being called out for blatantly disregarding God's criteria for being a church leader, they should get mad at God, not me!
Being brutally honest, telling someone the truth about their behavior or attitude regardless of whether it is polite and/or potentially offends them, and refusing to accept excuses for sinful behavior (e.g. "I was having a bad day"... "I'm not as bad as Person X" ... "Most people in my situation would've done the same thing...") is probably the most commonly preached message by Gracepoint leaders. Yet nobody seems to take action against those leaders when they themselves are the ones in error.
Delete