This is from a UC Davis Wiki page and is written by "jonwoo"
https://daviswiki.org/Gracepoint_Davis_Church
Since it was on the internet, I hope it is OK that I share it here. The content is good, even though it was from three years ago.
They may do some good things, especially to outsiders looking in. So maybe I shouldn’t just make a blanket statement like, don’t go to this church. Rather, I think this is the church for you if:
Unless of course, the leadership overlooks or forgets about you and/or decide you are not “spiritually ready” to be married. Be ready to be single a long time. Cause you should never make a decision like when or who to date on your own. I can’t make this stuff up, I seriously believe this church on it’s way to starting a monastery.
When I was a freshman, one of the staff told me, and I'm paraphrasing, "**** is a religion based on fear. Christianity is a religion based on love." Looking back, this seems ironic. When I was there, I remember being afraid a lot. Afraid of being rebuked, of being reported on to the leaders about something, about when or if I would be 'ready to date' in their eyes, if I would have to drop out of school to keep up with all the church activities. In conclusion, I’ve come to terms that in their minds, I will always be in the wrong, because I have challenged the infallible wisdom of the leadership of this church.
-jonwoo
There are some other good descriptions of practices that go on at UC Davis Gracepoint Fellowship on the webpage. Seems like a good resource for anyone who is considering going there, is currently going there and am feeling unease, or who is considering leaving, or has left.
Grace to you all.
https://daviswiki.org/Gracepoint_Davis_Church
Since it was on the internet, I hope it is OK that I share it here. The content is good, even though it was from three years ago.
2013-04-10 17:49:39
I am a former member. I knew most of the reviewers who have posted here personally during my time there. I wholeheartedly agree with what Kevin Yu stated. There are many people that have been hurt by the practices of this church. I’m writing this because I was hurt for many years, both while I was a member and after I left. That part of my story is not unique to myself, many former members have similar experiences. I genuinely hope what I write can help anyone who is currently attending or is a former member or even thinking about going. Please note, that the other reviewers after Kevin’s post talk about how great the church is without directly addressing the many problems he brought up. They may be trying to act Christian and take the high road on a public internet forum. Rest assured, they will likely not discuss or try to address these issue in private either.
They may do some good things, especially to outsiders looking in. So maybe I shouldn’t just make a blanket statement like, don’t go to this church. Rather, I think this is the church for you if:
- You don’t believe in confidentiality. All the information you write on your reflection sheets are circulated and systematically shared in staff meetings. Keep in mind there is a lot of soft pressure to be as honest and forthcoming as you can on these. Anything you tell your leader gets reported back up the chain so the upper staff knows what you are “struggling with.” Former staff members have confirmed that they had “quotas” to meet in terms of how much they share about their ‘sheep.’ - You have too much time on your hands. Or if you’ve ever sat down and thought, you know, I should be spending every waking free moment of every day doing some kind of church activity. And I’d really like someone to be looking over my shoulder and get on my case if I don’t. - If you truly believe God wants you to be subservient to a church leadership structure, even at the cost of your own mental health. I’m not exaggerating, there are people who left this church that had to seek psychiatric care and medications. - If you’ve ever thought, “Choosing a spouse is hard. Wouldn’t it be easier if there was a committee of church leaders to pick my spouse for me? I’d like it to be a surprise as to who, when and where they decide, without regard to my opinion on who it is. I don’t care if we have any shared interests, personality traits, mutual attraction or compatability, what our families think of each other, etc. After I meet him/her, I’d like to go through an expedited dating process of about a month, and let the leadership make most of the major decisions in regards to when and how our wedding will go.”
Unless of course, the leadership overlooks or forgets about you and/or decide you are not “spiritually ready” to be married. Be ready to be single a long time. Cause you should never make a decision like when or who to date on your own. I can’t make this stuff up, I seriously believe this church on it’s way to starting a monastery.
- You are ready to sacrifice your career, education, grades and interests if they are perceived to come into conflict with serving the church’s’ interests. I quite literally almost failed out of school due to this church's practices and pressure to attend church activities. - If you think sleeping is for wussies. I got rebuked several times for sleeping too much. I didn’t even know that was possible- I thought when you are hungry, your body is saying you need food. When you are thirsty, your body is telling you to drink something. When you desire love, something like love must exist. But if you feel tired and sleepy, it’s cause you’re a selfish lazy bum that needs rebuking. These rebukes weren’t very consistent either. Later I was rebuked for not being enthusiastic enough at church activities, probably because I wasn’t sleeping enough. - You firmly believe that leaving a church or changing your opinion over time as you grow up is a Cardinal sin. Pay attention to how they talk about former members- most if not all of them were too prideful, too angry, too selfish, too *****. They don’t make it easy to leave, and once you do, it’s a full on character assassination blitz.
When I was a freshman, one of the staff told me, and I'm paraphrasing, "**** is a religion based on fear. Christianity is a religion based on love." Looking back, this seems ironic. When I was there, I remember being afraid a lot. Afraid of being rebuked, of being reported on to the leaders about something, about when or if I would be 'ready to date' in their eyes, if I would have to drop out of school to keep up with all the church activities. In conclusion, I’ve come to terms that in their minds, I will always be in the wrong, because I have challenged the infallible wisdom of the leadership of this church.
-jonwoo
There are some other good descriptions of practices that go on at UC Davis Gracepoint Fellowship on the webpage. Seems like a good resource for anyone who is considering going there, is currently going there and am feeling unease, or who is considering leaving, or has left.
Grace to you all.
I agree on a lot of the point but there are some rather outdated things that need to be addressed.
ReplyDeleteAt least in Berkeley, no leader sticks their noses in relationships beyond monitoring and keeping it a pure relationship. The last ten marriages at Gracepoint I know of was NOT brokered by any leader. They asked whoever they were interested out on their own accord and went on dates and then went into courtship with their direct leaders involved. Pastor Ed has even gone on record more than once saying "go call whoever you're interested in and go on a coffee date with him. it's none of our business who you choose." HOWEVER what still remains is a lot of leaders still like to play judge over how Christian you are based on how you act in front of them.
And the whole fear thing depends on how annoying your peers are and oblivious your leaders are. Some younger leaders have experienced it first hand so they aren't that stupid to be harassing you to do things out of fear. I also do know of at least 3-5 people that have left with blessings from the deacons from being burnt out from the peer pressure.
In summary, keep your sources up to date. I'm not denying that it still exists in Gracepoint as a church but the church is evolving and correcting it's past mistakes. You can no longer over generalize past behavior of Gracepoint to Gracepoint as a whole now. Gracepoint LA probably makes Gracepoint Davis look like conservative prudes. Even Berkeley a2f looks prudish compared to Berkeley Klesis. Times are changing.
Please see the comments on this page: http://gracepoint-berkeley.blogspot.com/2016/04/community-and-accountability.html
ReplyDeleteThese comments are from 2016 and continue to highlight the problems with Gracepoint.
Maybe it's worth posting or linking all the reviews Gracepoint Berkeley managed to get taken off Yelp? Me thinks someone at Gracepoint works in Yelp, but we'll never know. If these 3 pages worth of reviews were part of their rating, they would be at 1 star instead of their lofty 3.5. Just the sheer volume of negative reviews, I dunno what to say to that. Just a huge systemic blind spot and refusal to listen to any sort of constructive criticism.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.yelp.com/not_recommended_reviews/gracepoint-berkeley-berkeley
There is a lot of good stuff there. I may post some of it later.
DeleteBased on what JonWoo and Kevin Yu wrote on the Davis wiki page, I, being someone who recently left GP can say that a lot of what was written 3 years ago still unfortunately exists today. I had been there for over a decade before I left, and I can say that I've been rebuked and corrected by numerous leaders on areas ranging from small to more serious character issues. I'm not going to lie and say that for those serious character issues, that these ought not be addressed. In many ways, I'm glad they were. I'll stop there. Having been there for some time, I've been to several retreats, where there are workshops on how and when to rebuke someone, and based on that workshop hosted by more senior members of the church, this is reserved often times to some pretty serious sins and I'm talking David Bathsheba type sins, and even moreso if that Christian is choosing to continue in that sin. Even the examples given at such workshops were so. So it's shocking when I was rebuked on things I didn't think were necessary. Before I left, I found that I was corrected for pretty petty things and was even told that my frustration over an incident was off. In fact, a theme of the last few years there was me being off on my feelings. I've been corrected for not responding to a text in a timely manner (i.e. within the next 5 minutes) when I worked in healthcare at the time. Heck I was even corrected for visiting a new mom 1 day after she got home from the hospital with a newborn with food and gifts, because I thought face to face visits after delivering a baby was more encouraging that a text or an email (Which I guess that leader at the time thought was appropriate despite being so busy) which is interesting since when I graduated from grad school no one came to my graduation and not one person sent me a text congratulating me. So, like many of the comments mentioned, it still exists, and its unfortunate that it does. It's an incredibly controlling environment where one does operate on fear, and the argument is that there's good pressure to do/participate in certain things. In the end, I feared a lot of things at GP. I feared my housemates, my leaders, my peers. I even feared leaving. It took months before I finally had the courage to finally say that I was planning on leaving. This fear was on what I'd experience. It wasn't even the starting over in my 30s thing that scared me (going to a new church, making new friends, serving alongside those who I can say are my friends and allies for God). I was scared by what people would say to me, the separation/abandonment that people would do, the hypocrisy, all of which happened by the way when I left about a year ago.
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying that GP has helped me through some trying times that required such need for correction. What I'm saying is similar to what the previous commentator as well as the first one mentioned. It still exists, and for those of us who have left, it seems as if we've all experienced the same feelings of hurt and notions of fear that ought not be present as we grow in our relationships with Christ and fellow believers. I remember thinking the first week I left GP and it's a pretty dangerous thought: If this is God's church, I don't want any part of it. That's how hurt and angry I was. Thankfully, God's word was my rock, and I made a promise that I'd visit a church the week I left. Like a previous comment I made, it's a long road ahead, but I'm glad I left, getting a new start, and learning to relate with God and others in a lot more free-ing manner where I am given the choice to love God, the church, and his people. If there's anyone out there that wants to connect, I'd like to, if there's anything, we all can connect, be friends, and really go together in Christ. :)
Thank you for sharing! I'm curious as to how GP taught staffers how to rebuke students, and what kind of examples were given ("David-Bathsheba type sins"). If those aren't appropriate to be shared in public on this blog, I can provide my email.
DeleteTo Anonymous who replied above, feel free an provide an email and I will try to email me you (sorry, I don't come on here often, but when I get a chance I do try and will get back to you as soon as I can).
DeleteHi Anonymous, my email is truth[dot]seeker2100[at]gmail[dot]com for those who follow this blog and want someone to talk to as well, feel free to reach out
Delete^ To the anonymous poster on 6/3/16:
ReplyDeleteWhat a story to read! Thank you for sharing your experiences. It takes courage to share a story like that, so thank you again. It's unfortunate that many of the issues discussed are still ongoing today. I left in 2011. I am sorry to hear about the fears you had to endure. I can totally relate to your story as I too feared for similar things. But I do want to congratulate you for graduating from grad school - and I hope others here congratulate as well. Certainly I don't want you to feel left out for your graduation - you worked hard to get there and your efforts should be recognized for it.
Anyhow like you said, the journey to healing is there, albeit a long one. I am glad to see you found a new spiritual home. Hope things continue to improve for you and the light at the end of the tunnel shines greater than before.
I went to Gracepoint during my frosh/soph years at Davis and would like to share my experiences. I was curious about spirituality and God in general when I first entered college. I was also excited to do new things, so trying out Koinonia seemed natural to me. I thought I had made good friends there, and even ended up living at the all men's apartment building during my sophomore year.
ReplyDeleteNear the end of my sophomore year, I felt ready to convert. I did a lot of thinking about God at this time and found some moments of true peace and loving through observing nature while reading the Bible and contemplating how God could've designed such beautiful harmony.
Unfortunately, the others living in my apartment did not appreciate how I was approaching scripture. This came to a head after a couple of fellow sophomores and I went on an impromptu nature walk and talked about philosophy and the Bible. I guess this deviated too much from the prescribed GP lifestyle, so the most "senior" member (he was the first to convert) of our group got yelled at pretty badly by a staff member. It was something about not approaching God in the same way as the church leaders did. I didn't get yelled at, but I noticed that some people started "monitoring" me. I would get a lot of texts asking me where I was and people would walk into my room unannounced to check what I was doing on my computer. People would be waiting in my room when I came back from studying in the 24 hour room in the library and they'd grill me about where I'd been. It was then I decided to move out. Afterwards, nobody contacted me and people didn't acknowledge me on campus. One of my closest friends who joined GP with me cut off all contact even though we'd known each other since high school.
For the rest of my college years, I felt a huge amount of guilt for what happened and thought that I had ruined things for people who believed in me. Today, I'm near 30 and can look back at it in a more objective light. I did try to explore Christianity again after college, but the anxiety from my GP experience made me too scarred to commit to anything. Now I live as an agnostic who's optimistic about God but wary about people.
Hi anonymous who recently replied in October, I was the original writer of the comment and I first want to personally apologize for the anxiety that you felt as a GP goer and that you are weary of people. Having experienced some similar events as a staff member, I want to be the one to not simply relate to u, but to really apologize because I know that feeling of anxiety and I know how it's cause you to think twice about people. I still get anxious at my new church and I am consciously nervous when I'm in locations where I know I may run into someone I knew then. Something that I'm slowly dealing with and am glad sisters older than me have rallied around me through such struggles. I'm thankful that u are optimistic about God, and I just want to encourage u to try out a church, one to your liking in terms of comfort level, in terms of what u really want to know. It could even be just to be a small group that's totally new to u. I joined a mixed small group and boy was it different! I was the youngest and being over 30 that was crazy. I've been in a group where I was the oldest amongst some crazy college folk who brought life back in me. The thing is, give it a try. Not the best of solutions, but I just want to say I know what you had gone through because I had experienced that too in my post grad days, but let that curiosity and optimism of whom god is be a platform to try again. Again I'm so sorry for what u experienced.
DeleteI encourage other campuses share their stories. I attended UCI's GP, and I wonder if other students have similar experience.
ReplyDeleteI read some "Not Recommended" reviews of Gracepoint Davis on Yelp, and to my amazement, people appeared to still be affected by the harmful practices mentioned on this blog.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.yelp.com/not_recommended_reviews/gracepoint-davis-church-davis?not_recommended_start=0
Many of these reviews were submitted from 4/16/2018 to 4/19/2018. Is anyone aware of a significant event that happened around those dates?
Gracepoint Davis is notorious. I am SHOCKED at how many valid reviews are designated as "not recommended" by Yelp.
Delete