Another great post up on The Chief Sinner blog on community and accountability.
http://chiefsinner.org/2016/04/06/demystifying-church-community-and-accountability/
When I read that post, I am reminded of the amount of shame and guilty I experienced while at Berkland/Gracepoint. There were public and private rebuking sessions, public shaming for minor offenses, and so much guilt. So. Much. Guilt!
While I was there, I felt guilty about:
http://chiefsinner.org/2016/04/06/demystifying-church-community-and-accountability/
When I read that post, I am reminded of the amount of shame and guilty I experienced while at Berkland/Gracepoint. There were public and private rebuking sessions, public shaming for minor offenses, and so much guilt. So. Much. Guilt!
While I was there, I felt guilty about:
- not doing quiet time everyday
- forgetting someone's birthday
- forgetting to thank someone for something they did
- not wanting to become staff
- not going to prayer meeting
- not praying passionately for 1 hour +
- wanting to take care of my family or visit them during the holidays
- liking someone of the opposite sex (just having the feelings!!)
- when someone of the opposite sex seemed interested in me
- not repenting well enough
- being me
- not wanting to give someone a ride every Sunday. They lived in S.F. I lived in the East Bay. I did it anyway.
- not giving more money to Gracepoint
- getting reimbursed for valid church expenses
- not showing up to see Mary, John, Mark, and Grace off to ABCD
- not liking one of the members of my small group
- not liking someone in my class
- not having 10 people I was reaching out to
- etc.
What a drastic change compared to how I feel now. I feel little to no shame these days and guilty only when appropriate (when I've done something wrong).
Be free. It was for freedom that Christ set us free.
Hi John,
ReplyDeleteI am a freshman at UW Seattle. Gracepoint just started a church here this year. I am just realizing everything. Many of my friends and church goers have stopped going to gracepoint for the same reasons. I am glad this blog is up because I know that I am not alone.
Out of curiosity, who was your life group leader?
DeleteI left many years ago and am currently in Seattle. If anyone here needs someone to process their experiences with, feel free to contact me.
DeleteEmail: r a d i a n t j u b i l e e @ g m a i l . c o m (with no spaces)
I too was/am a freshman who went to Gracepoint (A2f) in Seattle, and I left for similar reasons. Pastor Andy and Amy seem like very nice people, and I pray that God blesses them, but I just did not feel comfortable that the church. I pray that God blesses their staff as well since they were so nice and friendly (almost to the point of being fake, but oh well).
ReplyDeleteWhen I first started going, everything was fine. It felt homey, everyone was super nice. Bought me food, took me shopping, hung out with me. But the more I started going, the more I started having things bother me about it.
For one, I knew that dating was not allowed in church, which I definitely do not agree with. If you can't date in the church, what's the point of dating? I also don't think the pastor should have control over who you date.
Then I started noticing how they separated the guys and girls, even during services. The staff would always make sure to keep all them together, and seemed to intervene when the groups would merge. When I asked why during one of my life group meetings, they said "oh, we have events together." When i brought up the idea of doing bible studies with the guys (you know, to get other people's perspectives) they shot it down nicely.
It seemed that whenever I said anything that contradicted what they thought was right (which seemed to happen a lot), they would get really uncomfortable and just shoot it down.
I felt an enormous pressure to go to events, and felt very judged if I couldn't. When I would come to church (after not going for a week to any events), they would hug me and just say in what seemed to be a condescending backhanded compliment, "oh, wow, I haven't seen you in a while!"
I truly thought they were nice people, but deep down I had a bad feeling about the church since many things were not lining up. I left on a good note (I hope), but it seems that after I left, there has been a surge of many students leaving because of similar issues (like prohibiting dating, and the segregation).
Based on what you say about UDub, I am not too surprised it felt that way. Why? They were my own peers that I spent my last four years of college with. They were not the type to challenge spiritual authority for the right reasons and used canned responses. Pretty much by senior year most of them were just following the system and whining about trivial things in front of leaders. One guy I will not name went from someone I could trust to confront me brother to brother about things to a trivial whiny person. It's pretty sad how much things changed during senior year. It's pretty pathetic that they're continuing this vicious cycle of manipulations. I never understood why they couldn't just learn to do a better job of explaining what consequences they wanted to avoid and why they take such a hard stance on things from the get go.
DeleteIt is funny to note that a2f Seattle has three people acting as staff interns including Pastor Ed's second son and Tony's, UCSD A2F lead, son, who grew up in Gracepoint. So consider it a case of Gracepoint's long history engrained in them.
Feel free to ping me if you want to talk more.
I'm not upset about it or anything. I feel like they may bring people to God because some people need that type of leadership, but I don't know if that leadership is necessarily the right kind (definitely not the right kind for me).
DeleteI think rather than bashing them or complaining, I think people should pray about them. I have a feeling that they will have a hard time planting and becoming huge in Seattle because of how liberal we are and the fact that we have many campus churches. If they bring people to God, let them stay here, I just pray that they don't push college students away.
I truly hope that my friends that have left the church discouraged and hurt turn to other churches instead of turning to the college scene to fill that hurt. I'm sorry you had to experience that. I am assuming you turned to another church? Although I wasn't the closest with staff, I can definitely see how they just follow the rules, but if that keeps them close to God, then let them have it. I don't think it is right for them to hurt you or others though, but that is just part of our human nature.
Who was Pastor Ed's son? It's good to see that they have a passion for Christ and spreading the word, lets just pray he looks/realizes the mistakes of his father and changes them.
Considering that some leaders at Gracepoint (others are very aware and do their best to improve and work on it) are so blind to the damage they do, praying is the most passive way you can handle it. Some of the leaders at UDub were the most passive aggressive people that I know and you really think praying about it is going to do any good? Based on my experience, you're better off confronting them and telling how it is because some of them have deluded themselves to believe they are doing a fantastic job with their current means of execution and that people leaving is "growing pains of ministry". Who knows what goes on in people's heads....but I'll just say probability tends to lean in that direction... I maybe wrong, people do grow up.
DeleteAnd I disagree, they'll be fine as always, planting churches wherever they go. They are the largest church on the UC Berkeley campus and that's the epitome of a liberal campus with a total of iirc 5 undergrad ministries. Their formula is tried and proven and in theory works extremely well for college ministry and is extremely biblical. And regardless of bad execution at times, they still continue to grow.
Pastor Ed's son was Noah. IMO, Noah deserves a lot of credit for revolutionizing worship at Gracepoint to be more free and less rigid.
And no, I gutted it out for 4 years. There were too many people younger than me that were going through the same thing and best thing I could do is set an example of how to go through this. Pretty much most of the worst experiences you've had at Gracepoint I went through. Some peers shunning you and treating you worse than a gentile, check. Being blacklisted by most of the sisters in your peer class, check. Getting some unfounded accusations thrown at you by a leader, check. Rejected from living in a ministry house because of not wanting to write a testimony their way, check. Heavily mired in controversy, check. But hey, God gave me some of the best bros in that church that to this day I'm still very clsoe with to get me through those times.
I am still in touch with a lot of people in the church but I left asap as soon as I graduated. That being said I do continue to refer a lot of people to Gracepoint across their ministries (SJSU, UCSB, UCLA, USC, UCI, UCB, UCSD, UCB) as long as it's a leader I personally trust to really be a minister for that person rather than be a minister for Gracepoint.
Andy Tung, if you're reading this, I hope you take what you read to heart. Perfect love drives out fear. Church should not be a place of fear, judgment, or criticism.
DeleteThat's a little bit harsh with that statement to Pastor Andy... I personally did not get along with Pastor Andy at all but if you knew his background I think he's like that simply because he relates to you in that manner and that's the only way he knows and understands what transformed him. It works for some people and it doesn't work for some people. Some people at Gracepoint unfortunately just don't know alternatives because it was what helped them and "it works".
DeleteReading your defense makes me feel like I need to throw in my 2 cents. You're basically justifying his actions with a "the ends justify the means" or "you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette." I still feel like this is one of the deep rooted problems with Gracepoint as a whole. They love rebuking people, they even seem to think it's a necessary part of conversion and growing spiritually. When I was there I remember walking on eggshells a lot in case I accidentally did something that offended one of the leaders or even my peers. Or one of the SMN, that was the worst.
DeleteI don't think there is any biblical justification for putting people down and making them feel horrible about themselves, at least not the systemic way Gracepoint does. I still don't think it's acceptable that one or two people convert to Christianity while 10 others become bitter and need psychological help and antidepressants later on. I know of one person that committed suicide. Sorry, that's harsh, but it happened. I was one of those "conversions" and probably one of the examples they love to cite as "see, our rebuking works." But they don't see the damage it does later on. Because those people left the church. I needed many sessions with a counselor after I left. I have a hard time to this day going to any church without feeling a sense of fear and resentment. My Christian friends from non-Gracepoint churches sometimes ask me, "why are you so afraid? No one is going to rebuke you."
If you're talking about the same Andy Tung that I am thinking about, I actually went to the same church as him in high school. The way he and others were brought up in that church was wrong too. Many of the parents later lamented that they were so hard on their kids in high school, many of them of them ended up turning away from the church. A lot of the "way he was brought up" is based more on strict Asian culture rather than anything in the Bible.
I talked to a pastor (I think he's in LA now) when I was finally ready to leave Gracepoint. He (sort of) apologized for some of the "shepherding" I endured. He said he didn't agree with the way Gracepoint was treating many of the students. In the bible there are only a few examples of Jesus really rebuking his disciples. But the love and caring and mercy he was showing really didn't come out as much after you look past the free food and skits.
I'm not trying to defend him. Like I said I personally had a really bad experience with Andy myself for the last 2-3 years. One of my friends who recently left (and yes she posted) had a really bad experience with Andy. What I'm just saying is that people at Gracpeoint are too far over their heads to know any better and yes I can name you at least a good 50 people from undergrads to deacons who fit that bill. They have deluded themselves to believe that what they do is so righteous and holy that they miss the whole point of the Gospel. And it's a vicious cycle that they have created when the perverse the Gospel with Asian traditions when the next generation of people take over.
DeleteAnd meh some people need to break a few eggs to make an omelette. Different people need different ways to speak to them, and it's the leaders responsibility to know how to rebuke someone in a manner they will respond positively. Except a large number of leaders don't, hence the issues come.
And there's one Andy Tung at Gracepoint, currently pastor of the Seattle church and married to Amy with two boys and served a previous stint in their HsinChu church.
Haha, can't agree more than the fact a large number of people in the church have a tendency to rebuke people about everything little thing including the trivial matters that have utterly no purpose to edifying the church.
@Anonymous May 9, 2016 at 8:42 PM
DeleteNot to make light of what you shared, but suicide because of GP sounds a bit extreme. I would assume if there was some kind of correlation or probably cause, that should warrant a legal investigation of GP. Just pointing out that observation, no need to share more if inappropriate.
In the heat of the moment when I wrote that response I mentioned the suicide thing and since I did I guess I have to explain it.
DeleteI will try to disclose what I feel comfortable with, without revealing my identity or the identities of anyone who was involved.
Here is what I know: first of all I'm a male, and the persons involved were all female. Anyone familiar with gracepoint's strict gender segregation can probably forsee why that will be important later on. While at gracepoint I was rebuked pretty harshly by the Smn (pastors wife) several times. Publicly sometimes. For really nothing to be honest. I don't wanna say what they were in case it reveals too much, but suffice it to say i think it was extreme and unbiblical. The sisters spend way more time with the Smn (one on one and group meetings. Retreats etc). I've personally witnessed her yell at the sisters over the phone while driving in the car to some church event over what turned out to be a miscommunication. And from my interactions with my own leaders the rebukes were worse behind closed doors, so I can only imagine what it was like for them.
I lost touch with one sister in my class after college. I ran into another sister from my class years later and we lamented about our time in gracepoint (I think they were roommates). She shared with me , "remember so and so? She committed suicide after leaving gracepoint." There was more to that conversation, and that smn's rebukes were cited, but that's all I'm willing to share.
I don't know all the exact timing, I wasn't personally involved in this specific incident. You're right, I can't prove anything in a court of law, and coincidence doesn't prove causality. But I'm pretty convinced based on all the information available to me. Besides that , I'm not a lawyer, I'm not sure if there's any precedence for suing bullies or abusive teachers when students commit suicide.
I mentioned the Smn but there are many church leaders and I'm sure plenty of rebuking all around by many people. Suicide is complicated by many contributing factors, just like it's hard to pinpoint what caused the lung cancer. But if you were smoking 2 packs a day for 20 years, I think it's fair to say the cigarettes played a big role.
Andy Tung was my leader my sophomore year. We liked going to King Dong for our meetings and he loved Taiwan restaurant. Very charismatic and relational. He would rebuke the peer bros together and it was my tastes of rebukes. I felt so rotten.
DeleteSounds EXACTLY what Gracepoint at Berkeley was like 20 years ago. And how they remained until I left 7 years later.
ReplyDeleteSomething that would be helpful to people thinking about leaving Gracepoint is to maybe create a support system online where people can feel comfortable sharing their experiences and encouraging one another to continue to pursue God by seeking different churches instead of creating a blog that puts down GP and taints them
ReplyDeleteYour statement feels a bit contradictory. The fact that there seems to be a large need for a support system stems from the fact that there are major problems with GP and their practices. From what I've glanced at, the creator of this blog doesn't seem solely or mostly focused on putting down GP. Rather given all the problems they have caused, simply giving an honest assessment may come across as being negative towards GP to some readers. This site probably is the closest thing we have to a support system, while trying not to solely be a GP bashing site.
DeleteI would recommend reading this article:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.christian-faith.com/forjesus/church-politics
Here are some excerpts:
Sadly, some church leaders have got to the point where they must rely on techniques of manipulation and domination in order to maintain their positions of influence and authority. Such leaders are insecure and are easily threatened by those whom they cannot control. These leaders may have in the past been raised up by God for a great work, but at some point they departed seriously from God's will. To maintain their positions of power and influence, to preserve their "territory", such leaders resort to all kinds of manipulative political tactics which hinder the purposes of God's Kingdom and delay the outpouring of God's Spirit upon their communities.
...
If we have been the victim of negative church politics there is a danger that we take offense and begin to despise and speak against leadership that God has ordained. David refused to attack Saul when he could have, saying "he would not touch the Lord's anointed". Some withdraw from organised churches altogether and end up in little groups with no evangelistic vision or corporate purpose. They exist as forums where everyone can air what is in their hearts - be it helpful or harmful - and nothing is achieved. It does no good to sit around and speak against those who have hurt you. In fact, it can bring God's severe displeasure and judgment on your life.
Avoid becoming critical of leadership in general. It will only result in your own continued demotion in the Kingdom of God. You need to go to God for healing. Spend much time as David did learning to worship and praise the Lord. This will bring a needed river of healing to your soul. You are not ready to minister while you still have major unhealed wounds.
...
The best thing to do when coming under severe and unbearable attacks from leadership that is grieving the Holy Spirit is to do what David did - seek to "avoid" "the Lord's anointed" as much as possible. Spend time in the wilderness with God. Make a few disciples as God enables. Try to associate with people who want to serve God and who are moving in the Holy Spirit both in the gifts and in their relational style. There is always much to learn from others. Draw strength from God and when you know in your heart he has spoken, do it. When you still need to ask approval from many others about something in your heart before doing it you are not in the place of sufficient faith. Fierce opposition always comes to any important assignment you receive from God, so make sure you are convinced and ready to persevere before launching out.
God bless you.
I need help.
ReplyDeleteWhat church plant and who is your leader?
DeleteI am hesitant and don't know if I should reveal the name of the church plant. I don't want to reveal too much information that reveals who I am, but I believe my voice needs to be heard.
DeleteWell I personally think the nature of your help will vary in the context of the church plant because it's dependent on the leaders. Different leaders have different ways of responding and things sometimes can be worked out or addressed. For instance with UC Berkeley people and the ones who want to leave I usually urge them to talk to Steve Suh or Jeannie Lee or Rick Yi (yes all are deacons more or less). All of them have done a fantastic job of either helping them transition out or mediate and voice concerns to the leaders of what specifically the leaders themselves need to work on. Hence I asked which church plant as it does vary and there are people I know who can see reason.
DeleteSo I am curious what issues have you been having?
Feel free to email me
ReplyDeleteJaydubya2020@gmail
After reading some of these posts, I'd like to help in whatever whoever needs help transitioning out. I'm a few years out but was there for four years and have experienced:
ReplyDelete-Thinking joining was the best decision of my life for years, being super committed to it.
-Getting spiritually abused by church leaders who I had trusted, who had always shown good intentions until they needed to get me to do what they wanted, even if it was outside of what is said in the Bible. I'm talking about P. Andy, and other pastors.
-Contemplating ending everything by jumping in front of a BART train many times after the pain of the abuse but feeling unable to leave because of all the relationships I had there. Receiving no support from the leaders other than to just 'deal with it'. Thank God I didn't go through with it.
-After leaving, having to cope with losing all of my friends, who don't have time for people outside the church, because gracepoint > everything. Some of these friends I had been lifelong or family friends with but no longer spoke to me after I left, even though the reasons that I left had nothing to do with them.
Since then,
-I’ve found a new church and have rebuilt my faith on the word and my personal relationship with God, and not hindered by the extra-biblical commandments from human leaders
-I’ve seen a bunch of close friends leave and move on to others churches where they had similar experiences of finding a new kind of free and genuine relationship with God, not based on fear. These are the only friends that I’ve been able to keep in touch with.
-I’ve seen a bunch of other friends leave the church scarred, vowing to never try christianity again.
I’m sure some of you think that gracepoint is the best thing that ever happened to you, and I can definitely relate. I hope that the abuse that happens to many don’t happen to you as severely, but if it does, that you can find hope. For those of you that are trying to find a way out please don’t lose hope. Find a church community that can support you. If you want some help, feel free to email me at hopeinthelord.77@gmail.com.
After reading some of these posts, I'd like to help in whatever whoever needs help transitioning out. I'm a few years out but was there for four years and have experienced:
ReplyDelete-Thinking joining was the best decision of my life for years, being super committed to it.
-Getting spiritually abused by church leaders who I had trusted, who had always shown good intentions until they needed to get me to do what they wanted, even if it was outside of what is said in the Bible. I'm talking about P. Andy, and other pastors.
-Contemplating ending everything by jumping in front of a BART train many times after the pain of the abuse but feeling unable to leave because of all the relationships I had there. Receiving no support from the leaders other than to just 'deal with it'. Thank God I didn't go through with it.
-After leaving, having to cope with losing all of my friends, who don't have time for people outside the church, because gracepoint > everything. Some of these friends I had been lifelong or family friends with but no longer spoke to me after I left, even though the reasons that I left had nothing to do with them.
Since then,
-I’ve found a new church and have rebuilt my faith on the word and my personal relationship with God, and not hindered by the extra-biblical commandments from human leaders
-I’ve seen a bunch of close friends leave and move on to others churches where they had similar experiences of finding a new kind of free and genuine relationship with God, not based on fear. These are the only friends that I’ve been able to keep in touch with.
-I’ve seen a bunch of other friends leave the church scarred, vowing to never try christianity again.
I’m sure some of you think that gracepoint is the best thing that ever happened to you, and I can definitely relate. I hope that the abuse that happens to many don’t happen to you as severely, but if it does, that you don't give up on God. For those of you that are trying to find a way out please don’t lose hope. Find a church community that can support you. If you want some help, feel free to email me at hopeinthelord.77@gmail.com.
Thank you Hope. I remember when I was told I would stay as a staff intern and wouldn’t be promoted to staff, that I went outside and cried for hours. It was social shaming and embarrassing having younger people promoted to staff. What was wrong with me?
Delete